I’ve been trying to get my brother Scott into this end of the business for the last few years. I’ve always been a big fan of his writing so when a library recently requested an Arron Copland like piece I prodded him into it. Scott is used to writing for a live orchestra and we all know how challenging recreating an orchestra in a DAW environment can be! He would appreciate any feedback on his piece.
I second Hysteria’s critique: the music will only go as far as the sound library serves it and so the programming and production need to be top-notch to really pull this off. Even just finessing the individual performances (and humanizing them, in all sections) would make a major impact (breaths, phrasing, arioso soloist style, etc).
My 2 cents.
Yeah great piece. Does sound like Copland. Im listening on headphones so its a bit harder to listen accurately but If I had to criticise then the only negative for me would be that it does have that air of DAW produced to it. Theres a lack of real orchestra atmosphere to it and to some of the sounds. But i guess thats a given when wiritng using a CPU. A mastering reverb might add an extra depth to the sound. But Im not an expert on mastering so its just a suggestion. Apart from that I would say thats a brilliant production.
Thank you hysteria,
I’ll look into the mastering reverb.
I’m using EW Plat Plus.
My method was to write in Sibelius and then export the MIDI file to Sonar but I think perhaps that’s not a great idea….I should of played everything in instead; it might mitigate some the DAW quality you spoke of (which I agree with).
Also, I was using the sounds available to me in the master key switch, I should look beyond those.
Well, onward and upward!
EW platinum plus. Iv no experience with that but i hear its a great sound collection. Yeah playing it all in would probably get rid of a lot of the DAWness but would (for me anyway) be a difficult and very time consuming task. For me when im writing something orchestral using a DAW, I find a lot of adjustment is required with instrument EQ and attack,decay,sustain and release times esp when using strings. (but im using Kontakt 4 and I dont think the included sounds are the best so they probably require more EQing ect. EastWEst might not need much or any EQ i dont know.) But i dont want to say too much because the song is great and does sound like Aarron Copland.
Hello Scott
Really enjoyed the piece with the bowed saw.
There is a radio show on BBC Radio 3 which you can listen to online called ‘Late Junction’ which plays a very eclectic mix of music http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tp52
The reason I mention this is that it might be right up your street in terms of listening enjoyment and also your music might be right up their street in terms of the music they like to play.
Anyway keep up the good work
Cheers
Ian
Thank you Ian!
I’ll definitely check out the station.
Thank you for the lead!
Excellent quality in both the arrangement and the sound quality
Great job, brother!! Great job!! Keep doing it!
Thank you James!
Why don’t you get some real instruments? It would sound sooooo much better and it really doesn’t cost that much. Like a decent trumpet player might be 300$ but it will improve it no end. Sounds are not good at the moment. But it does sound like Copland though.
Hi Tiddly,
I thought about that, and actually have trumpeter friends that would do it for me for a lot less, (I have limited funds).
Wonder if I could get it to mix satisfactorily with the rest of the samples. In NYC, where I am, there’s a lot of great players, but not a lot of work for them. The live recording industry has been decimated here!
Lovely piece of music which is the most important part, cannot comment on the similarities to Copeland as I am a foreigner LOL.
Getting virtual orchestral music to sound right is very difficult as you are aware of. It is not something I do personally but the composers I know who do this well have slave machines with multiple libraries and loads of duplications of instruments. They may use LASS, Symphobia,VSL, Eastwest etc to do different parts and combinations. A really good convolution reverb is a must too. Altiverb being the most common which has samples from many classical concert halls.
Very nice. Good quality recording, musically spot-on for that style!
Thank you Gary!
Thank you for posting this Art!
Hi All,
Realizing cues on the computer is a bit of a new thing for me.
Mostly I’ve been writing concert pieces (mainly chamber, some orchestral) that are stylistically different from this cue.
If interested, here’s a link to a couple of pieces. The piece ‘Bend’ had a favorable review in the NY Times and has been performed quite a bit here and abroad.
http://www.scottmunsonmusic.com/category/media/audio/
Looking forward!
Thank you!
Hi Scott,
Aaron Copeland is one of my favorites. I had the opportunity to see him conduct Appalachian Spring, Fanfare for the Common Man and Rodeo. I am also familiar with his film work The Red Pony and Our Town, and lesser known works, like El Salon Mexico, and the Lincoln Portrait. The is very Copeland-esque. Can’t go wrong with fourths and open thirds.
I listened to your other tracks and I hear a lot more Charles Ives going on there, harmonically and rhythmically.
What samples are you using?
Good stuff. What a musical family!!!
Cheers,
Michael
“The is very Copeland-esque. Can’t go wrong with fourths and open thirds.”
Meant to say the “track” is very Copland-esque
Typing late at night with one eye open. Sorry.
Cheers,
Michael
Thank you Michael!
Wow, you got to see Copeland conduct! Witness to history! Very cool.
Thank you for listening to some of the other tracks. I just recently put up the site and am still uploading stuff….
I’m using the EW Platinum Plus in this cue. It’s pretty much all I got at the moment, but would love to get VSL one of these days.
I find trying to make stuff sound realistic is SO challenging and after awhile I feel like a dog chasing it’s tail!
Thanks again!
Hi Scott,
Yes, it was quite a thrill to see Copleland conduct his own works. It was back in the 70’s at a summer music festival. One of those memories…
The thing with EWQLSO is that you need to use a ton of articulations to get a realistic sound (sometimes combined). On one track where the melody was carried by solo trumpet, ala John Williams, I used 6 different articulations to get a decent sound: solo trpt 2 QLeg vib RR, solo trpt 2 marc long vib, solo trpt 2 stac RR, solo trpt portato, solo trpt vib dxf acct, and solo trpt exp ppff.
It’s pretty much the same with all of the sections. The keyswitches make it easier and if you play the parts in and don’t quantize that helps a lot too. Play the part in and then enter KS data on a separate track, set to the same midi channel. Use the mod wheel and dxf patches for dynamics.
Many of these issues have been simplified by new libraries like CineBrass, LASS, Hollywood Strings and Hollywood Brass.
Project SAM Orchestral Classic Brass is on sale now, It’s older, but does have slurred intervals, which adds more realism to the brass.
Have fun!
Cheers,
Michael
The mic positions are important too. I use the stage mic with a little close mic for definition and the surround mics for depth. You can also use plug-ins, like Ozone and Alloy to enhance the natural qualities of each section. Ozone has a good orchestral mastering preset. Some writer, like Nick Phoenix also add an extra layer of reverb over the entire mix to give it a spacious cinematic quality.
Thanks Michael,
Great info!
I am using the key switches but should delve in deeper to explore more of the articulations available. In the Tpt part I think I used about four different articulations. I used some of the stage+close but haven’t messed with the surround yet.
Something I find annoying with the stacc patches in the strings is they are slightly accented (with respect to the leg patches) and often don’t combine well with the legato patches, though perhaps there’s a way around this as well…..without putting them on their own staff!
Thank again! Great info!
Hi Scott,
Unfortunately you may end up using separate staves any way. The keyswitches don’t contain all of the articulations. Sometimes, like with the solo trpt, you have to mix and match.
The newer libraries aren’t necessarily a solution. You more or less need a second computer to run Hollywood Brass and Hollywood Strings.
Have fun and best of luck.
Michael
I am a huge fan of Aaron Copeland and I believe he is the greatest American composer to date. His work truly represented what is America in my opinion. I did a piece that is Copeland-esque myself a couple of years ago.
Scott did a pretty good job here in my opinion. I’m sure Scott would like some feedback, but I don’t do that. I’m still learning myself (and always will be)and don’t like to critique others work when I believe that my work needs improving on it’s self.