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That’s a horrible story LAwriter!
I’ll move this thread to subscribers only section so it will not be available to the general public.
Thanks for the kind words Art. I appreciate it. I also appreciate you moving this to the private section. I don’t want to cause a stir, but I do want to help the brotherhood of writers avoid what could be very costly mistakes in their career….
Hmmm, the writer gets 5 cents each time his or her track is downloaded? LOL!
Nope. Actually the writer gets nothing. They buy out the syncs on the front end. And at this point, I think it’s virtually nothing more than equal to one moderate RF sync.
But LA Writer, they do own the content? do they not? Are you stating that they are doing all this dumping with NE content?
Hi Music1234 –
No, I own the content. At least I own the NON-Exclusive content. I have Exclusive content with Westar, and NON-Exclusive with stockmusic.com (Both are owned by sound ideas)
I figure on the exclusive, they can do what they want. I don’t like it, but it’s theirs.
On the NON-Ex, I gave them (in perpetuity) the right to retitle certain tracks, own the NEW publishing (for the re-title), and distribute through stockmusic.com. Period
Period. I was not aware they would dump that library into every other library they could find. If a class action ever came up, I’d be all in. I had them pull the titles from ONE library, but I’m sure it’s making them a boatload of $$$ in many other libraries.
As for audiohero.com, I did NOT give them any right to do that. And only some mega sleuthing would let me know if in fact they completely removed my music or not. For all I know they could have pulled it temporarily, removed composers names (which they in fact have done) and then dropped it back in with a new name. NOW, I’m not saying they did that, but it’s possible because you can’t see or search the composer now.
As for those of you who put music into stockmusic.com — you music has a high probability of being sold against you in other non-ex libs, and is quite possibly also being “subscribed” in audiohero.com. Take action if your contract does not allow that (mine didn’t).
Fine with me!
OK. Here goes…. (Hope I don’t get blackballed….) Screw it. We’ve got to try to get out ahead of this one – or it will be the final nail in the coffin…..
Late 90’s, early 00’s – I did several Exclusive CD’s for a Canadian Library – Sound Ideas / Westar Music. Decent placements, not a huge amount of $$, but worthwhile – roughly $1000 per tune upfront payment. Seemed like good folks.
Early ’10’s-ish – they started a new Non-Ex Library – stockmusic.com. They paid UPFRONT fees around $100+ a tune to gain a re-titled publishing share for NON-Excusive tracks and and to be able to sell syncs with no split of the up front – i.e.: 100/0. (Still kept my writers share). I was more naive about NON-Ex libs at that point and put some really good tracks in as I had a ton of tracks I had done for another company that allowed me to keep my copyright – and they were not available publicly – so it seemed like a win. Not the greatest deal, and ultimately I regretted it, but I got a lot of cash upfront and it seemed OK. At this point….
Early ’15’s…maybe 2014-ish. Warning #1 – they started dumping their stockmusic.com library into other libraries that I was then in, and guess what…. I started competing against myself. By then I had started to explore Non-Ex libraries and was in a good one that was selling well. But stockmusic.com dumped their (my) songs in and started selling against me. They were selling a LOT lower than I was for the exact same track. Grrrr…. I told them the situation and asked them to opt out of the main (really at that point, the only public NON-Ex lib that I was in.) They agreed after I explained that I would never have put my music in stockmusic.com if I had known that they would take their library and dump it into other libraries. Feeling a bit better at that point, but my guard was up. And they were probably getting frustrated dealing with someone who actually reads the fine print….
A couple years passes and I was made aware that my tracks were somehow in a library called audiohero.com. WTH??? How did that happen. My clients and those licensing my music (I have a lot of “followers” that continually license my material off of (primarily) one other site could now download 3000 of my tracks in a year…..all for the fun, energetic and enjoyable fee of :
$299 a year – and they could opt out at any time…..meanwhile, I get $0.00.
When I figured out how my music got there (westar/stockmusic) I went off. They were competing against me in a variety of different markets by dumping their stockmusic.com catalog everywhere they could, but now, they were essentially giving my music away because YOU COULD SEARCH MY NAME and find just my catalog and download it for virtually nothing.
Actually, I’d rather have it pirated for nothing than have these “businessmen” make $299 off me.
After calming down a few days, I politely called, and had them walk me through it. There was zero upside for me, no matter HOW hard they tried to convince me otherwise. When I told them I never signed a contract for audiohero.com, they got very angry at me. Said he never wanted to talk to me again, never contact them again. All this after a 15 year relationship. OK. Whatever. I was done with them by this point. It still bothers me. as I considered them good friends.
I see now that they have removed the ability to search the composers name – so I’m not even sure if my music is still in there or not. Whatever. At least people can’t search my name for a cheaper price – $0.12 a track. At this point, they do not even list the composers name in the extended details. They probably got killed with angry composers like myself. However, they DO list their publishing company. Probably in an attempt to garner some PRO royalties. But how can they do that without the client knowing the composers name too???
<<Sigh…>> Another sign of desperation and/or greed in our industry.
Guys, this is a small industry. I hope I don’t regret this. Art, I may ask you to delete after the conversation is through so that it’s not searchable forever…..
I think it’s FairPlay to name names and warn guys who either don’t read their contracts or who are just beginning in the biz and naive enough to bite. Art? Is this OK?
They stand to gain/lose as much as we do, right?
No they don’t.
If it makes financial sense, I’ll opt into it. If it doesn’t, I won’t.
It’s a guaranteed monthly blanket income for libraries that is normally not split with writers. It’s a last ditch effort to eek some cashflow by companies that are sucking air. (Even if it’s split, it’s literally between $0.05 and 0.10$ a track – IF you have a 50/50 sync split) It’s a model that’s pretty attractive to low end libraries in a market that is crumbling from too many upstart companies.
If you have a tune by me that you want to license on one site that charges $50, another tune by me that you want to license on a site that charges $200, and you can sign up for a monthly subscription site and get 50 pieces of mine (including the above 2) for $9.99 — and then opt out the next month — why on earth would you purchase a traditional license from the $50 or $200 library?
The answer of course is that you wouldn’t.
I don’t want to make extra pennies. I want to protect the investment I already have. I will not voluntarily allow any library to cannibalize my sales via subscription if I can stop it. And that’s exactly what subscription models do to composers.
I had a company try to sneak my music in to a subscription plan library from another of their libraries, and when caught – they tried to backstab me told me how great this would be for my backend royalties. I asked them to go ahead and explain it in detail how killing all my other NON-EX licensing sales and getting backend from their cheapo 2 bit customers would help me. All I got was techno blabber-speak. They couldn’t back up anything. It was an experiment on their part. Their standard Exclusive and RF libraries are listed on MLR. Their subscription model library is not. Thankfully.
If a potential client can’t afford audio jungle, pond five or some of the other low end sites, do you really think that they are worth having as subscription model customers?
How is downloading of 250 tracks a month for $29.99 – that’s $0.12 a track work out to be anything but suicidal. Most of those licenses will NEVER be broadcast, and even if they are, it will be youtube or netflix and pay out pennies. Two normal RF sales in a single month will take 10 years to make the same $$ in a subscription plan.
The future is up front sync’s – not back end performance royalties. Subscriptions will kill the front end possibilities. And all we’ll be left with is pennies from netflix / amazon, etc..
Music1234 – IMO, subscription based models for production music is the death of our industry. Can you share the name of the library you mentioned that is “caving in”? Feel free to PM if you can’t mention it publicly, but honestly, I feel they should be outed and exposed for what they are. If it’s allowed by Art, I’ll start by publicly exposing one. If not, I’m happy to share via PM.
This stuff will make me quit writing production music. It will. I thought it was obvious enough that people (writers) wouldn’t fall for the craziness, but maybe I’m wrong.
I had a HUGE blowout with a long time client that tried to put my music into a subscription model that he was launching. It ended a happy and profitable 20 year relationship when I told him “no way”. Good riddance is what I say…..
Chuck – you should try to define exactly what your’e shooting for. IME, writing “songs” that could be performed live is a far cry from writing production music. The former is limited in uses with (potentially) higher sync fee’s, and the latter can be used over and over in a wide variety of situations and probably licensable 100X’s more than “songs”. That may be part of your problem in getting placements. I don’t know, just speculating here…..
Nice. Sounds like the two options – although similar (music) are pulling you in a couple of different directions. I’d give it some soul searching and follow the one that gives you the most musical joy, and give it your all. Good luck.
Hi Chuck!
Well put these so called opportunities out there to the mass public in something as popular as music and stoke the fires of “you too can quit your day job and do what you love and make $80000 a year or more” is a surefire way to cause a glut in the industry, and create a heck of a buyers market.
I think that’s a fair statement. The market is beyond saturated. And mostly with guys who don’t have experience in being a “composer/ arranger / producer / accomplished (to some degree) musician” – which IMO – is really what it takes to make it long term in this biz.
Along with the old standby “The reason you aren’t making enough money is because 1:) You’re music sucks
Can’t comment on that other than to say : I always think my music is brilliant when I conceive it, and I’m positive it sucks by the time I’m done with it. 🙂 If you know your stuff is good, never let anyone tell you otherwise.
2:) You’ aren’t creating enough of it ,
Well…that’s just a flat out legitimate statement, and possibly the truest statement you made. If you want to call this a full time career and you don’t have 1000-2000 pieces of music in play in many different genre’s, in this market, you will need to be very lucky or extremely unique and gifted. If you only write blues or hip hop or <fill in the blank> you will very quickly begin competing against yourself. How many pieces of one specific mood/genre does an editor need to be able to plug his musical holes. Soon, he will look to other composers if you are not EXTREMELY diversified. Write, write often, write well, and write in a dozen + different genre’s — and by different genre’s I don’t mean : EDM, Trance, house, Drum & Bass, Dubstep, Techno, and Trip Hop. 🙂 🙂
you need to send us more products of your hard labor (for no fee whatsoever) and maybe you might make more and and
Anyone who tells you that is an opportunist trying to take advantage of you.
3) it takes at least five-10 years of contributing to see a return. Anything else they would tell you if your business isn’t seeing a decent profit in five years get out.
I think that’s a legit statement. It a long game. That said, if you’re 5 years in, writing, finishing and placing at least 3-5 pieces a week and not seeing some significant placements, back end and sync’s, you are probably unlucky or doing something wrong. Depending on style, etc. that 5 years could be full time or close to full time. Surviving for those 5 years while you build your catalog is the hard part.
Now, I don’t think it takes 5-10 years to SEE a return, but I do think it takes 10+ years to make enough to “call it a career” – for most of us anyway.
Six years in and I still make more playing gigs on the weekend.
Either you make great coin gigging, or you’re not writing enough or putting it in the right places. That’s not a judgement on your music, your talent or your ability – only on the simple math of more = more = placements.
I love that someone thought enough of some of my music for usto make some money off of it, but it gets to the point where the money has to be worth worth the outlay of time, gear, training composers put in.
That’s awesome, and should be your first driving force. But I understand completely – if music is just a grind, and always leaves you feeling overworked and frustrated….what’s the point. Better to make it for the pure love and joy of it, and make your daily bread elsewhere.
Or the giant pool of music will inevitably turn into a something resembling what used to look like a mud puddle.
I think we’re there.
Now tell me , Am I wrong? to me it seems inevitable. I’m sure this post if it makes it will result in some jabs at the quality of my efforts.
I think you have some good insights. Only you can judge the quality of your efforts. Some guys have 60 hours a week to write. Others are lucky to have 6. Given equal talent and connections, the 60 hour a week guy will grow his career exponentially faster than 10X’s as fast. It’s hard not to feel like your’e falling behind. The last few years have been building a new studio for me, and getting acclimatized to new surroundings, and I feel like a slacker – I’m probably only writing 100-125 songs a year. I’ve got to get back on it. Good luck!!
Annnnd….the results are trickling in from my thoughts above. ^^^ Actually, a bit worse than I had expected – although I think BMI is pulling some shenanigans with the netflix income to greater or lesser degree.
More and more of my shows (Multiple shows, multiple seasons, some in syndication with anywhere from 60-120 episodes a show, with anywhere from 2-15 cues per show) are transitioning from Cable to Netflix with quite a bit of frequency now.
The result?
A decrease of roughly 98-99% in my back end PRO income. Yup. Netflix/BMI is paying somewhere between 1% and 2% of what CableTV/BMI was/is paying me just a few years ago. Same shows, same cue sheets, same music. It’s taken some math and some time to do the evaluation, but that’s what I’m seeing. Many of these shows are listed in the “trending on Netflix” menu – so they are not buried in the netherworlds of Netflix’s basement.
If you’re writing specifically for Netflix, or if your shows are transitioning over completely and going OFF cable, or if your music is in exclusive libraries where you have no control over it to make front end sync’s via non-exclusive directive……
I’m sorry. This is ugly. Buckle in….
If they send you a buyout fee for your masters / publishing in the amount(s) of $500-$2000 per track, then yes, consider it if you feel they are a good match and will make you money.
If there is no up-front buyout fee…well, my advice is to look elsewhere. The “real” companies still do buyouts up front. That’s where you stand a fighting chance to make money by giving away your rights. If a company cannot afford to pay for your rights, it’s unlikely they will make anything substantial for you.
The real money lies with OWNERSHIP. Give that away and you give away the rights to real money.
That’s my perspective anyway…..
I can wait!! Willing to take the risk. Royalties are the actual retirement that I’m planning on…..
That’s probably dicier than the stock market. LOL
I’m playing catch up on the market. I’m aware that I may lose big. It’s a gamble I need to – and am willing to – take, as I”m nearing retirement.
I’m going with Vanguard Index funds. Index funds have outperformed the vast majority of “managed” funds the last 50 years. Fingers crossed and eyes open…..
PS – Investing in MYSELF was the best investment I’ve ever made. Gear, Mics, Consoles, Studio(s), Backline. Hundreds of thousands over the years. It made for a good career, although I don’t know if it would work again….
PPS – investing in a house in LA was the 2nd best investment. Thanks to the Chinese I made a killing…. Again, don’t think that would work again starting in 2018 – but who knows.
Indeed!! Zero doubt about that.
The advantage of actually working a job for your income is that it keeps music pure and spiritual – the way it should be.
As opposed to making it a job and spending your free time figuring out how many tracks you have to crank out a day/week to earn a living — all-the-while living in fear that you’re not going to “make it” in time…..
^^^^^
I couldn’t agree with that more. The new money is in “teaching newbies how to do something that doesn’t exist anymore”.