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I know this is going to rub most composers the wrong way… but with all of the talk of “backend disappearing” due to streaming coming of age, and the flood of “composers” in the market, I’m wondering if it is not time to take our product into our own hands?
Please focus on the word “product”. Just like a painter, a furniture maker, or a cake decorator down the street, we are creating a product.
Why shouldn’t we sell our product like everyone else?
Here is where the “boo’s” come in… WORK for HIRE.
Hear me out…!
How many of you would take $500-$1500+ for one of your tracks and give up your copyright? I can promise that some would.
I think it should be a viable option/business model to consider. A website/label/library designed specifically to offer such deals to film/tv/video producers, corporations, and even other composers that want an investment. They get 100% control/ownership and can recoup their investment on the backend or additional licensing if they choose. Most video game compositions are setup exactly this way already! Win, Win IMO.
In this new music business, exclusive contracts for no upfront money and the hope that it gets used once in a tv show that airs once or twice on cable, and is then sent to Netflix to make pennies, is not an prosperous option anymore.
My question is… Is there actually a market for work for hire music now? When a producer can license just about anything for $50?
I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this! And, I would actually love for someone to start a website/label/library that provides this service (that had the contacts to market it). I would certainly submit some tracks. I would still keep most in the RF market for now though.
I am now ready for the “Sh@t Storm” to begin… 🙂
I don’t often comment on controversial issues on here but do enjoy reading all of the opinions. I feel you may have a point. Last year I sold 1 track to a music library and received a total of £950. I was told by the library that if the track was to be used in ‘a mega tv campaign’they may consider some further payment. Otherwise, what I got was what I got ( money towards a new Mac )
My feeling at the time was this. If I was a decent artist/ painter etc I would probably paint a subject, put the work in my gallery , add a price tag open up and let the punters in. Hopefully, sell the work and move on. That is what artist do all the time. I feel that for certain types of production music it is worth selling the track outright.Unless I’m misunderstanding – which is possible – I don’t get your proposition. Work for hire has always been around – and probably always will be. It’s how TV and Film production companies work when they hire composers to work specifically for their needs. It’s how high end exclusive libraries work. They buy you out with an up front payment.
I think the only thing in question is HOW MUCH they pay and whether or not it’s worthwhile. In most circumstances – other than the very high end TV shows and Films – it’s not enough for 2017.
I will not give away a copyright ofor a good piece for $500. I can make more than that “OVER TIME” by working it myself. $1000? Maybe. $1500 is getting closer. Aside from top TV/Films, and maybe a library or two, who is offering $1500 for a piece of music? I can give you the answer if you don’t already know.
Budgets for TV shows and Films have dropped drastically in the last decade due to massive influx of competition (everyone wants to be a film composer, right?) and available music (libraries everywhere offering music for free, and even splitting publishing with the production company). That said, films usually need a dedicated composer, and TV shows can certainly benefit from one as well. But don’t fool yourself, the availability of composers and massive amounts of music definitely plays into how much said composers get paid. (Reality TV is pretty much gone for dedicated composers.)
It’s not unusual for very experienced film composers to take on a FEATURE film with an all-in budget around $25-35k these days. That is horrible pay IMO for the amount of work, and talent, and experience it takes to pull it off. With an hours worth of music, that comes in around $400-600 a minute. Episodic TV is pretty much just as bad. Best case you might be pulling in around $300 a minute – with production companies hoping that by season 2 you have created a “library” for them to music edit things together – so that they can edge you out of creating new works. Note, these are all-in budgets much of the time – composer pays all costs which can be very high (musicians, engineers, editors, etc.).
That money might look good at first glance, but it’s not great pay when you have to hire musicians, a mix engineer, orchestrator, music copyists, assistant and maybe a music editor just to survive the schedule.
The workaround is that those guys are DEPENDANT on the back end to make such low pay scales work. That’s how it’s always been and the production companies know it. Unfortunately, we are in a season of change with streaming taking over, and music being given away for free. The old school paradigms may or may not work depending on your situation and needs. And it’s pretty much out of your control.
That’s my opinion – but not everyone needs the same amount of money to live. For instance, it’s more inexpensive to live in India or Iowa vs. Los Angeles, etc..
So….what’s the answer? IMO, not going back to the old school model you suggest. We need something different in 2017. However, if we could get buyers of music to up that pay scale (it’s not going to happen in this climate and probably never will) then I would agree with you completely. Pay me fairly up front for the work I do for you instead of me hoping for some backend to make the gig worthwhile….
$500-$1000-$1500 won’t make it though.
There is one library offering as little as $100 to purchase a track and doesn’t seem to be having problems getting composers.
There is one library offering as little as $100 to purchase a track and doesn’t seem to be having problems getting composers.
Exactly. And that’s why you won’t be seeing $2000 a track payouts anytime soon….
I have had one PMA library that’s well connected offer to buy me out for $0 per track for a package I developed over the course of a year with great expense. All I would get is backend. Hahahahaaaa!! That’s the last time I’ll ever speak to them about a project.
Personally, I don’t even know how they could offer it with a straight face. Obviously they get SOMEONE to take their contract. And how do you compete against free?
I’ll answer my own question. You KEEP YOUR COPYRIGHT and work it yourself. Guaranteed you’ll do better than $0.
I haven’t really seemed to be affected by the “So-called Influx of New Composers”. My placements, and royalty payments are steadily increasing. Once it becomes a factor, I will consider all new avenues, and/or rethink my strategies to continue earning. But for now I’m steady on the course..
The business overall is affected by a myriad of things. Technology being at the forefront, global competition, changing business models, etc. following quickly. And upfront payouts (work for hire buyouts) – which is what the JohnA (the OP) is suggesting – are definitely affected. In the film biz, in the TV biz, and in the library biz.
Back in the day $2000-3000 a track up front payouts were not unusual. Try to find that now. Normal, TV Films paid out $80-100k for music. Features much higher. Again, in scarcity these days.
Perhaps you don’t have the time in to have seen the differences? Unless we’re living in a bubble anawares, we’re all affected, whether we feel it or not.
Perhaps you don’t have the time in to have seen the differences? Unless we’re living in a bubble anawares, we’re all affected, whether we feel it or not.
I have been in the Library aspect of the music industry since 2004, but I did have a hiatus for a few years; while still concentrating on “The Record side of the business”.
I have been in the Recording Industry since 1982..
LAwriter, I do understand that there have been major changes in the industry, and the Cows/Hogs are not nearly as fat. But, let us be honest with a couple of things..
1) About 90% of the new producers will not make it to The Top Tier Libraries within the first 5-7 years of being in the Production Library/Catalog side.
2) About 80% will not have the skillset to possibly ever be signed to a Top Tier Library (Not being mean, and I apologize. Just telling the truth)
3) The Top Tier Libraries have a STRONG Clientele, and numerous Faithful Subscribers that are depending on “A Certain Caliber of Production Music”.
Yes, those that have been in the industry will complain because is not the “Gravy Train that it once was”. But I highly doubt anyone will be jumping from a tall building any time soon.
Weird. Losing posts again. I’ll try a third time….
I agree with most of your points, but they seem completely off topic and/or ignoring the elephant in the room. I don’t see how they pertain to the original post, and I don’t understand how – if we consider them 100% accurate – they apply on how to structure our business models – which is essentially what John was asking.
You’ve obviously been around long enough to see the changes happening in the industry.
If you don’t mind, I’ve got a couple questions as they relate to your (apparently) back end based business business model :
1. How long (if ever) do you think it will take until streaming becomes the dominant form of content delivery?
2. How do you view streaming royalties in 2017 as compared to Network/Cable royalties in 2017.
3. Do you think streaming royalties will “change” for the positive and if yes, please give us your reasoning for this.
For a long time I believed streaming royalties would “get better” as more people switched over to VOD, but at this point, I’ve gotten several examples with empirical data that point quite the opposite. Depending on the future of cable/network and government and the powers that be at the PRO’s, if all goes streaming, royalties as we have known them will be gone. The only hope at that point will be for work for hire as the OP suggests, or for sync royalties and retaining ownership to our own works.
If Cable and Network stay the same and as profitable as they have been for the last 50 years, then we have nothing to worry about. Celebrate the few hundred extra that streaming brings. BUT, if profits and accounting are any indication, Network and Cable channels advertising income is definitely in the decline, as their contributions to PRO’s started going down a couple of years ago after 50 years of steadily rising.
Interested to hear your thoughts.
Thanks LAwriter, I really enjoy your input. It is definitely good to have someone “keeping their eyes open, and warning all of us about impending dangerous conditions in the roads ahead!”
To answer your questions. I will try to do it to the best of my ability, and hopefully completely. As I have mentioned, I speak with my PRO Rep a LOT, and we are sharing the same concerns on how we can defeat “The Glutinous Streaming ID”.
How long (if ever) do you think it will take until streaming becomes the dominant form of content delivery?
Very good question! I still think we are at least 5 to 7 years; maybe even 10 years away from this. As well, we still have a rather large portion of the U.S under the poverty line; that can’t afford Cable, or Streaming Services. I am going to mention streaming revenue; while hopefully answering the next question.
How do you view streaming royalties in 2017 as compared to Network/Cable royalties in 2017.
To be honest, it pxxxxs me off every time I see a Royalty Statement. It feels like an absolute waste of space!!
I personally will not be writing for ANY streaming series, or media. In it’s present working conditions, it just makes no sense to me to “feed a Beast!”Do you think streaming royalties will “change” for the positive and if yes, please give us your reasoning for this
I did address this in another thread. While WE Composers/Writers are losing a LOT of Money; so are OUR PRO’s! Just like with Cable TV, I believe the industry thought it would be a “Niche” market; and would not grow to be the Giant that it already is now. Understanding that they are NOT going to let this money keep getting away. I believe that legislation, and new terms will happen a LOT faster! I think “WE Composers & Writers need to be VERY Vocal, and Proactive about the wages & compensatory conditions we are being forced to work under. I am optimistic that a lot of changes will be happening soon!!
**Please excuse any errors, or typos. I too am being “filtered” and notice that if I edit for Grammatical errors. I don’t see the post for several hours…**
I too am being “filtered” and notice that if I edit for Grammatical errors. I don’t see the post for several hours…**
@BEATSLINGER you had mild profanity in the post so it got sent to the moderation queue.Weird. Losing posts again. I’ll try a third time….
Sorry, it looked too much like spam to the spam filter. Seems long posts are the most problematic. I’ll contact the developer and see if there is a work around.
Thanks for the thoughts Beatslinger. I appreciate your thoughts as well.
regarding this :
While WE Composers/Writers are losing a LOT of Money; so are OUR PRO’s!
I can’t agree with this. The PRO’s are working for us. (SESAC excluded) They are non profit, and no matter HOW much or little they collect, all their salaries will be paid in full, promptly, with nice cost of living increases. They have no skin in the game.
Unless there is TRANSPARENCY in reporting, we will never know though. Netflix says they are paying MORE than their fair share. So….who to believe? BMI has been sucking off funds that were generated by network and cable and putting them into their favorite areas for YEARS. I suspect they are doing likewise with streaming royalties, because there is :
no history of payments because streaming is brand new
no transparency of what they are making from streaming
no accountability to writers.We however will be the ones who hold up their salaries – at our expense. I don’t know if you saw it or not on another thread, but a buddy of mine who was expecting huge royalties (15-20K I’m guessing a quarter) had a major network put his show onto Netflix. All seasons. His royalties plummeted to between $300-400. This is for a 5 year series. Talk about panic’d.
We’re long past due to figure this out. Long past. Unless something happens very quickly, those coming up will not make it.
BTW, just for reference, what PRO are you with? ASCAP? BMI? Other?
Sorry, it looked too much like spam to the spam filter. Seems long posts are the most problematic. I’ll contact the developer and see if there is a work around.
Thanks Art!!
Just so I can be upfront, and honest. My viewpoint about My PRO losing out on money just like I am; is because I am with SESAC..
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