1,729 thoughts on “General Questions”

  1. Anyone familiar with a licensing company called The Eight Dawn? Wondering if they are exclusive or not.
    tia

    • Hi Pat, yes, 8Dawn is exclusive. It’s Troels Folmann’s library. High-end trailer material. He’s pushing a different direction musically so if you wanted in there, you would really need to study their recent releases and try to catch where he’s going. It’s not standard production library stuff.

      • Hi Rob. Thanks . I’ve been checking out the libraries you listed in a response to another poster asking about libraries to get into.
        Unfortunately, I don’t have enough material to want to get into an exclusive deal with yet.
        Still searching high and low for more non-exclusives say like Moonlab or Scorekeepers more so than places where they accept any and everything though I’ll take what I can get right now .
        Not looking for the “name your price type deals which I guess is the difference between libraries and licensing companies those Library seems to be a generic term like coke.

        • Fair enough. You’ll find all the trailer-focused libraries are exclusive. Trailer stuff is all I’m doing now, so I don’t know about other decent non-exclusives. Have you tried Audiosocket again recently?

          • Hey Rob,

            I’ve got about a dozen trailer tracks that I’d like to finish and move, before the shows that I’m writing for go back into production.

            Have you found anyone particularly receptive?

            Thanks.

            Best,

            Michael

            • Hey Michael,

              I think like any library, it depends on what they have in the pipeline, what their needs are at any given time. I’m loathe to openly name any in case they experience a sudden flood of submissions Lol 🙂 , but if you like, send me a message via my website (Art has my link down on the left-hand side) and I’ll be more than happy to provide some detail.

          • Now that you mention audio socket, not recently and I just finished a new piece so I think I’ll try them again. Thanks for the reminder. Trying to get into libraries where people actually listen and decide if it’s good enough. My first two I signed with so far are Scorekeepers and Moonlab.
            I’m with others but I’m not sure if they accept any and everything that comes their way. That’s the total opposite of the ones I don’t have a prayer of getting into. Looking for the middle.
            I don’t want to be accepted just because I’m alive. Too much competition. Not much chance of getting licensed that way.

            • I hear you Pat. I wish I could point you in the right direction for what you’re after but I haven’t been chasing any more non-exclusives. Hopefully some other guys can think of a few for you.

  2. Word has it the only thing making money out there is
    selling distribution rights around the world.Thus the meager payouts
    were seeing for music.Seems to me companies are licensing
    whole catalogs for a fee and if your track gets used you make make pennies
    from that unless you own the company..

    • DP,

      You are making broad assumptions. I’m not sure if you are responding to a particular post.

      You aren’t connecting the dots.

      Are you referring to sync fees, or PRO payments?

      I think that some writers do not understand how PRO payments work. They assume that there’s MEGA dollars involved, particularly if something is broadcast on a network. That is not the case.

      In the US, ASCAP and BMI have weighting formulas, based upon a number of factors, including, but not limited to, where the music is broadcast, time of day and type of performance.

      Network pays more than cable. Network pays more than local. Prime time pays more than 6 am on Sunday morning. Features, themes and vocal music pay more than background music. Background music with vocals pays more than background music without.

      I had three minutes of background music in a network special on CBS sports. As I recall it paid about $900 — so about $300 per cue. It was a one time broadcast.

      I have other music that gets played nationally, but on a local per performance basis, during non-primetime hours. It only pays a few dollars. NO LICENSING FEES. BUT, the music in question is broadcast two or three times per week on 135 stations, 52 weeks per year.

      Moral of the story… the pennies add up. You cannot say — “oh, I only made $20.” You have to make $20 a few thousand times.

      • I think he may be referring to blanket licensing MichaelL. And yes, I’m seeing more libraries doing this (even the exclusives).

        So, in the case of a blanket license; say the library licenses their catalog for 1 year at $5,000 to a client like MTV. The library takes their 50% ($2,500) and divides the other 50% amongst the writers. 100 writers would make $25 each. 1,000 writers would make $2.50 each.

        Some libraries will even calculate further by dividing the pie proportionately with the number of tracks each writer has in the package. thus, if one writer has 1,000 tracks and another only 100, the former would receive ten times as much as the latter. Or putting it more correctly, the latter would be making 10 times less. 😀

        Either way, in this kind of deal, the library would be the only winner. For clients like MTV, there will be minimal PRO royalties.

        • Hey John (the other John),

          I’ve been fortunate to not worry about that so much.

          Significant back end royalties, except for high profile Network (ABC, CBS, NBC FOX WB) performances require quantity — a lot of placements and a lot of repeat broadcasts.

          Sounds like identifying libraries that do blanket deals is one more filter, for not wasting one’s time.

          By exclusive — do you mean the one’s that pay up-front or the “cake and eat it too mode” i.e., we want exclusivity, but don’t/won’t pay for it?

          Cheers,

          _MIchael

        • Hey gents,

          What do you think pays more performance royalties on a quarterly basis..

          1) A placement on an MTV show such as “Parental Control” or “Jersey shore” that get aired 50+ times

          or..

          2) A placement on NCIS on CBS that will air twice on network, then 10 times on a microscopic cable station…

          • Sorry oontz oontz, I don’t have any experience under either #1 or #2. Most of my revenue is network related.

            But, I’ll guess #1.

            What do I win?

            What I really want to know is who pays best BMI or ASCAP!!!???? Thinking about switching –truly a PITA.

            _Michael

          • BUT…oontz oontz, it’s worth pointing out that NCIS will likely go into syndication, and will still be broadcast somewhere, long after Snooki is a grandmother and the Jersey Shore crowd is long forgotten.

            So the NCIS writer will continue to get income.

            _Michael

          • I would bet the MTV usage would probably make you more money in the long term, because an MTV show (or any reality show for that matter) is more likely to not only re-air the one episode using your music, but also re-use the same music again and again on other episodes.

          • Here is my best guess. And this is a total guess:

            Short Term (6-12 months): The NCIS placement will pay more.

            Medium Term (1 1/2-3 years): The MTV placement will pay more, IF it is on one of the more popular shows.

            Long Term (5 years-infinity): I think that the NCIS will edge out the MTV placement. A show like NCIS is much more likely to be a “classic” that gets re-run over and over on multiple networks all over the world. A popular MTV show will have a good run over a few years, but eventually they will stop airing the show. I never see reruns of an episode of “Real World” from 1992, but I always see reruns of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” from 1992.

            • Hey Gents,

              Here is my experience…

              If it is a non-recurring source cue or piece of underscore on a “series” type show (not a live daily show like Entertainment Tonight) the MTV/Vh1 placement will pay more in performance royalties.

              Usually network shows are syndicated on cable networks that pay extremely low performance rates, most are measured in fractions of a cent.

              Star Trek TNG might be playing 20 years later, but the network on which it plays might only be paying 25 cents per airing.

              The “equalizer” comes in the form of a network sync license.

              Have a good day everyone!!

            • @ Slideboardouts and @ Oontz Oontz:

              I think that your long term /short term analysis good. I’m in the situation that Oontz Oontz alluded to, recurring cues (theme and background, (syndicated) but, on network and local network.

              Again, over the long term the pennies add up, particularly if you have a lot of cues. I wouldn’t focus on one over the other. You need short term and long term income.

      • Well both of you folks are right here.
        I dont have that many tracks yet but I am making some money already
        though some of it is through these blankets.
        I have other stuff that plays and we make a little alot of times over and over.
        My comments mainly refer to an executive at a bg company and where they are going now to make money as within selling rights everywhere.
        Some of you here have had skin in this game alot longer than I, and those who make a little to good money are off to a running start.
        I realize the pay scale is different for everything but on a positive note every quarter has been better than the previous one.

        • Why bother being so cynical?

          Blanket licenses are not anything new. I did one album for an exclusive library Waaayyyyy back in 1978/79. I got a small chunk of the blanket for years — until they chose not to convert the vinyl.

          _Michael

    • Hi all,

      Thanks for the great site here Art !

      Does anyone here have a tip on which library/s obtain actual placements in the epic movie trailer type genre. ?

      Cheers !
      pi

      • Hello pi – If you’ve got the goods, there are plenty:

        Killer tracks
        Extreme
        Universal
        Immediate
        Position
        PP
        Sonic Librarian
        Red Arc
        Sonoton
        Beyond
        Posthaste
        Epic Score
        8Dawn
        Fired Earth
        X-Ray Dog
        Liquid Cinema
        615
        Riptide
        5Alarm

        …and so on.

      • Bruton is part of Universal.

        Also Extreme are in the premier league.

        Music Candy??? naaaaah. Should not even appear in the same sentence as the others.

        IMO

        • Just b/c bruton’s part of universal doesn’t mean they’re not a uk library. If you want to do a disc for them contact them in london. Extreme are based in the US btw. They have representation in the UK.

          KPM is represented by APM in the U.S. but does that mean they’re a U.S. library? No. If you want to write for KPM you get in touch with them not their parent company or subsidiary.

          Sorry but none of what you wrote is on subject.

          • “Sorry but none of what you wrote is on subject”…

            Well, I was mentioning that Bruton are part of Universal, that’s all. I was just pointing it out in case anyone didn’t know. It is a true statement.

            Extreme are in the premier league – so that statement is also correct.

            You contact them in the UK if you are based in the UK – as I have done. You will then go down and meet with people in the UK and present your album to people in the UK. So that statement is correct too.

            Is all I was saying!

            Thing is, I probably know alot more than you about this (the fact you mentioned Music Candy demonstrates this) although you probably think you know it all by the sounds of it. Drop the attitude dude and you might get further in the industry. Noone likes a smart ass.

            • “Well, I was mentioning that Bruton are part of Universal, that’s all. I was just pointing it out in case anyone didn’t know. It is a true statement.”

              From your remark it sounded as if you were denying that they were a UK company

              “Extreme are in the premier league – so that statement is also correct.”

              I didn’t argue that they weren’t. It was off subject because the original question was “What are some good UK libraries”, NOT “what are some premier libraries in general”. Just because a library isn’t as big or developed as Extreme doesn’t mean they aren’t a good quality library. Some of the writers for the one company that you seem to despise (MC) also write for some of the others I mention above..look them up if you want. One of their composers is listed on the” music creators” section on the homepage of this site.

              “You contact them in the UK if you are based in the UK – as I have done. You will then go down and meet with people in the UK and present your album to people in the UK. So that statement is correct too. Is all I was saying!”

              That’s fine, but again you originally made it sound like they weren’t a UK based library. Universal has their hands in a ton of companies like them. I’ve written music for libraries under universal yet have never talked to a single person at universal. The point was, you deal with the library, not universal except for the part of the contract that says Universal Music publishing group. Maybe you can do it the other way around, not sure though cause I’ve only gotten work through Libraries directly.

              “Thing is, I probably know alot more than you about this (the fact you mentioned Music Candy demonstrates this) although you probably think you know it all by the sounds of it. Drop the attitude dude and you might get further in the industry. Noone likes a smart ass.”

              Ok now I think you sound like a smart ass. I wish I knew it all! I’ve never had that attitude and never will. There’s a reason I frequent sites like this…TO LEARN MORE. I didn’t get to where I am today by being a no-it all. And because I mention a company that’s not as PREMIER (as you like to call it) as Extreme, that makes me less knowledgable on the subject????

              So this is what I get for responding to a guy that simply said “What are some good UK libraries”……Unbelievable! One of the reasons I love this site so much is because unlike a lot of other industry sites, you don’t have the constant bickering caused by trolls. Instead it USUALLY offers friendly advice & conversations between composers, Music supervisors, library owners, etc.

              Sorry for this rant but your poor attitude really struck a nerve. Why don’t you state your beef with MC on their page since you seem to have so much hostility toward them? Maybe they did you wrong somehow? If so it’d be nice to let others know about it.

              I’m willing to leave my email address if you’d like to talk like men about this. If you’re in the US I’ll even give you my number and talk to you in person, no reason for this bickering. Have a nice day!

              • I have to agree with you musicman. I am not sure what it is exactly, but El Jol has a very unpleasant attitude.

              • Well said Musicman.

                I’ve seen this type of attitude before. The need to feel superior and to be condescending usually arises from insecurity about one’s work, place in the food chain, or simple jealousy of others success, especially if the individual considers the other’s successful work to be inferior to his or her own. I do not know if that is the genesis for El Jol’s attitude, but this is what I have observed in others.

                The fact is that we are creating LIBRARY MUSIC. We are not creating sacred works of art to be cherished for all time. To think otherwise is to delude oneself.

                In a highly competitive industry, it’s not wise to close doors, and limit opportunities, simply to stroke one’s ego.

                As I’ve said before when someone has this attitude: post a link let us hear what makes your work superior. Maybe we will learn something that will help us improve our inferior lot in life.

                • Well said all. ElJol/Jello you really come across with a bitter and superior attitude. This is a site for composers to share info and hopefully help each other through the maze of the library business. You are absolutely entitled to your opinions but to constantly go on about he fantastic exclusive libraries you allegedly work with is getting tiresome. If you think you are impressing anyone here then I am afraid you are mistaken. I have worked with some A list artists and composers in my time and none of them had the attitude you have. This is not a p**sing contest to see is the best/richest/coolest library composer out there, it is a help forum. And to echo MichaelL post this is Library music we are talking about !!!!! I am very proud of what I do and hopefully maintain the highest of standards I can in my work but get real, we are not in the Zimmer/Williams league.

                • Thanks MichaelL and Pjon. I normally don’t go off like that, but I think it’s important to keep this site for it’s intended use. Which is friendly networking amongst people working from all angles in this business.

                  I also agree with your statements as well MichaelL. Very well said.

        • I’m curious. Why do you have a problem with Music Candy? They are a nice group of folks with excellent credits (including all the music for the new Piers Mofgan show on CNN.)

          Are you basing this opinion on personal experience with them?

          • Frank,

            Check out El Jol’s post about JIngle Punks from 2/26.
            https://musiclibraryreport.com/music-libraries-h-to-l/jingle-punks/

            It’s clear that what’s going on has more to do with El Jol’s perception of who he/she is, as a “superior” composer, than any reality, good or bad, about the library business.

            I am so happy for he/she does not have to worry about dealing with the lowly riffraff, that the rest of us represent in our efforts to rise from the primordial swamp.

            It’s a shame that someone has to use this forum in this manner. Clearly, he/she has some issues.

            Next time, just consider the source and move on.

            Could be El Jol is actually Jello, also prone similar thinking. But Jello seems to be more of a seasoned pro.

            • “Could be El Jol is actually Jello, also prone similar thinking. But Jello seems to be more of a seasoned pro.”

              Your powers of deduction are impressive.

              Really guys, this is just library music. There are far more important things in the world to get uptight about at the moment.

  4. edd

    i know u how you feel, i had the same thing recently – i thought it was going to be thousands on my first statement – i was astonished to see 20 dollars per play etc, on mainstream tv. i am waiting to see my next statement and see how things improve tho. i figure that if the tracks massively popular then i would be minted. i guess that being lazy and being a gambler it appeals to me that i can roll the dice, sorry i mean roll the mouse , and make something thats gonna make me quids in, yeah it didnt happen on my first track , but when it does, i aint going to look stupid, i will look cool, mega cool…at least thats my plan.

  5. I feel like such a fool. I just got an international royalty statement showing that I had a TV placement in Europe. I received a whopping $1.74 for my music. How in the world is that even possible? 🙁

    This is bad, very bad. I just do not see why I tried so hard in the past. I am very disappointed in myself. At least I know where I stand. I quit making songs about 6 weeks ago. I do not plan on going back. Thank God for my family. I do not know what I would do without them. 🙂

    • Hey Eddy, Hang in there, we’ve all been there. It can be a brutally frustrating business but good news can just be an e-mail away!

      • Eddy,

        +1 to everything the Art, El Jol and Darkstar said. It takes time — a long time and the pennies eventually add up to dollars.

        ++1 to what Art said. It is very true, based on my own experience.

        I recently sent an email to an former client, who didn’t know that I’ve returned to the business. His response was more than good news, and will erase my 10-year absence.

        There is only one question that you should consider. I’ve heard it asked in several contexts.

        I quit the music business 10 years ago — to the extreme. I became a lawyer. Then, my former law partner asked me if I really wanted to be a lawyer, or if I just liked the sound of it. The honest answer was obvious. He said that there’s just too much crap involved in being a lawyer if you don’t love it and want it. He was right.

        Similarly, I’ve heard people ask struggling artists if acting /music/ painting/writing etc., just something that they WANT to do, or is it something that they NEED to do? There is a lot of crap and sacrifice that you will experience before you succeed.

        So, ask yourself, (when you’re not so discouraged) where you fall on the scale between want to write music, and need to write music. Are you passionate enough about it to stay the course?

        If the answer is yes, scale back if you have to. Don’t hurt your family by spending money that you don’t have, or not by giving them enough time. But, FIND TIME TO KEEP AT IT.

        Best of luck,

        Michael

        • So you quit music to practice law, then quit law to go back to music? Is music your full time career? I just don’t get the logic in quitting a respected and progressive field such as law to make background music for TV shows. Passion is good and all, but I would never go into music on a full time basis. All that work for so little money? Please give us the full story!

          • Hi Jimmy Boy,

            Yes. Music / composing is my full-time job.

            >I just don’t get the logic in quitting a respected and progressive field such as law to make background music for TV shows.Passion is good and all, but I would never go into music on a full time basis. All that work for so little money?<

            Truly some people would rather have bamboo stuck under their fingernails than practice law. However, I would not have left law with the intention of making "so little money," or if I believed that would be the case.

            However, and I stress this, my situation is unique. I have nearly 30 years under my belt. I already made a living as a composer, so I knew that I could do it again. I have catalog of 2000+ cues, that I accumulated during my career to this point. I plan to rerecord and market as much of that catalog as I can. I also plan to return to film scoring. I've been attending film festivals and networking with producers. And, I recently reached an agreement to write directly for a number of television shows (which may take up all of my time, for many years).

            So, the answer to your question Jimmy Boy, is that the decision to leave what you likely perceived as a secure and well paid position is unique to my circumstances alone. I would not recommend that anyone, starting from square one – without a catalog – or previous success in the business, quit their job. Absent those factors, you need to follow that part time path that Matt and other successful writers on this forum have followed, until you reach a point where you can leave your "day job."

            I hope that answered your question.

            Best of luck in your endeavors.

            Michael

            (wow a lot of my post disappeared when I submitted it, I’ll try an edit)

            • @MichaelL. Some comments go into the moderation cue depending on different criteria. You happen to hit one of the criteria by responding to this particular commenter.

              • Hi Art,

                It was just the a chunk of what I wrote disappeared. That’s happened before. I think it happens when I receive and answer an email, while I’m typing the post.

                Of course, if it’s troll avoidance, that’s your department.

                Thanks,

                Michael

            • @Jimmy Boy,

              What disappeared from my post with respect to practicing law:

              I assume the you do not live in the US. Law is actually one of the least respected professions.
              Although, I think that lawyers are now above bankers on the list. Lawyers have higher rates of suicide, depression and substance abuse than other professions, and the general population.

              Most lawyers DO NOT make a lot of money. 45 K is the average. Large firms require associates to bill upwards of 2500 hours per year. Assuming that you take time to eat and use the bathroom, you need to put in about 3000 hours to meet the billable requirement. So, if even if you’re making 100k you are actually working the equivalent of TWO full-time jobs.
              Simply not the way that I want to live.

              EVERY attorney who asked me what I did before becoming a lawyer responded by saying “COOL, why in the world did you ever give up composing to do this?” Eventually, I got asked that question enough, that I asked my self that question.

              Why I became a lawyer: I experienced some truly shady, unethical and illegal practices in the music business — in particular with library music. Let’s say it inspired me.

              The practical side: it seems that many composers do not have a good head and or sufficient knowledge when it comes to business and law. The successful composers that I know have a handle on both. Training in law or business increases your abilities to organize, communicate and negotiate, which are all essential tools in this business.

              Sorry to make this two posts.

              Michael

              • Michael,sure would like it if you could share some of those experiences with
                the not so ethical libraries.Seems easy for some of these licensing companies to do!
                Being a lawyer helps with some of these contracts as well.

                • Hi DP,

                  What I experienced happened in the late 1990’s. What happened was the result of the actions of one individual, and that person’s business practices. It was before the current retitle/licensing model took hold. So, it did not involve licensing contracts.

                  I wrote a lot of music for this publisher, as did many other composers. I trusted him to handle all of the typical publisher details — like registering tracks with my PRO — because he said that he would.

                  At that time, you could not view your catalog online, so I requested a print out of my catalog from my PRO, to make sure that everything was registered. It was…but every one of my tracks had one of his family members listed as a 50% co-writer! This was done without my knowledge or permission. And, there were no contracts transferring any rights at all to this individual, or company. Under federal law, the transfer of any portion of a copyright must be in writing. At the end, he took 100% of the writer’s share on a few of my tracks. That’s when I decided to go to law school.

                  All told, I’ve lost over 100K (but that means I’ve made over 100K). I could pursue the matter in federal court. AND I would win. But, that would just be throwing away good money after bad money.

                  There were other shady practices that involved “gaming” the PROs, but none so egregious.

                  I am not naming names because neither the company, nor the individual, are in a position to harm other writers.

                  I would stress, that what I experienced involved the practices of one individual, and should not be taken as representative of the library business as a whole.

                  However it is clear, from reading this forum, that many, perhaps a majority of writers are so anxious to have their work published, and hopefully placed, that they may be blind to such abuses. Or, they may allow themselves to be exploited in the hope that it will lead to better things.

                  1) Protect your works

                  2) Stay on top of your catalog

                  3) Don’t allow yourself to be exploited, just because somebody offers you deal

                  4) Have an attorney read your contracts

                  _Michael

                  • Thanks Michael L;
                    I’ve heard other stories that are similar.
                    I’m 3 years new to the music library business but did work
                    as a ghostwriter for someone else making 150-200 k a year
                    over a 15 year period that ended in 2008.I caught the person I woked for
                    flat out lying to me multiple times,lets just say it makes it hard working with someone you
                    work with often who is flat out dishonest. It becomes a fine line with writing
                    music knowing that this kind of business practice is happening right in front of me.
                    So now I make sure I do all the admin and I check with BMI to make sure my tracks are registered correctly for me and my writing partner.
                    We have about 60 tracks which isn’t much compared to you Michael with a couple thousand and the other person I know through the grapevine who I believe frequents this site Matt H who has around a thousand tracks,but we are starting to make money every quarter.
                    I do get some upfront work on my own,just finished a job that paid thousands and there will be some backend royalties with that which I administer the publishing and pay back a % to the production house,and this works well since all matters that have to do with the job go through my desk.
                    Thanks for the stories MichaelL.Some wisdom goes a long way for those trying to get in this game and I appreciate having other experineced writers chime in here.
                    There is no getting around the time it takes to write solid tracks so like I’ve heard before
                    these things happen over a long time.

                    • Hi DP,

                      Yes, in addition to what I described, I did some “ghostwriting” too. They took 100% of the writers share! I suppose it’s just the dues that you pay.

                      However, in total, we are only talking about a few hundred tracks, which for the most part are now dated, and have run their course. I still have 2000+ tracks, that I own, which I am recutting to current standards, while also writing for television.

                      Cheers,

                      Michael

                  • DP,

                    I should also add that, in my case, much more good than bad resulted from this person’s wheeling and dealing.

                    Of course, at the time, when I decided to go to law school, I had no way of knowing that would be the result. Nor, do I think that he was a bad person. He was just able to rationalize his practices as doing more good than harm. He genuinely believed that he was helping people. And, in my case, that ultimately turned out to be true, not withstanding his methods.

                    My point is to be aware of what is going on with your catalog. Moreover, avoid approaching this business from a position of desperation, otherwise you will be vulnerable.

                    _Michael

    • Eddy – PLEASE DON’T GIVE UP!! That one payment, even small, shows you have talent and people like your stuff. I have been there and nearly given up but I am thankful I stuck at it cos now it’s going very well. Yeah, it can be dispiriting but you have to dust yourself down and then get back in the studio ASAP!

      When you have alot of trax out there you find that the statement contains all manner of payments. Like my last one had loads at even 0.1 !! And I had some BBC iPlayer ones that even said 0.04 !!! But then there were some in the hundreds and then some in the 4 figs. It depends on so many things.

      When I was starting out I had a similar shock and, like I said, was almost gonna give up. I did an ad that went out that I thought would make me rich and it earnt $40. That was a shock. So now I am more realistic, but also more knowledgeable about the payment structure. Alot of the time, if truth be known, they don’t amount to much but it’s the accumulation of earnings of hundreds of tracks that brings in decent money. But, as I keep saying, it’s important to get your stuff with a good library in order to get the good payouts. Tracks have to be good so programme makers keep using them time and time again but they also have to be in high profile shows on mainstream TV if poss – as opposed to say, The Art of Goat Farming on an obscure cable channel.

      Don’t give up! Like Art says, that big break could only be an email away. If you give up you will never know what you are capable of achieving and may perhaps regret it in future years.

      • +1 to everything El Jol said.

        I remember the very first time I had a library track used. Boy, was I in for a shock when it only made a couple of pounds. Thing is though, that same track has gone on to be used and used and used. Multiply that track by several hundred tracks and thats where the money is made.

        Just takes, time & patience. You’re over the first hurdle, stick with it 😉

        • Good point! Eddy, that 1.74 is just one small payment that – years down the line – will be one of thousands of payments of differing value. The tip of the iceberg.

          Like Darkstar – I had a track earn nothing for 4 years! No usage whatsoever. Crap track as well but then out the blue it appeared on a KFC ad and earnt several K. Then another one – so they had to license it again so another few K. Then some nice PRS.

          Look at the long game – you really have to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO patient in library land. But it pays off eventually.

    • @Eddy . Just to chime in here and agree with all the responders to your post. Hang in there the music business, especially the library music one is built on disappointments. The next gig is only an email or phone call away as Art says.

      I will share with you an incident which happened to me over 20 years ago when I was mainly producing records. I was asked to co produce a record with a member of the biggest band on the planet. (They probably still are). We made the record, it was No1 for over 15 weeks !!!!! hailed as a classic in its genre, sold by the crate load and is still played regularly on radio.

      I thought at the time, thats it, my big break. The phone will never stop ringing and I will retire by 40. The reality was, I didn’t get any gigs for months. Why ? I dont know.!!

      I laugh about it now and use the story to portray how fickle this business is on all levels. Keep plugging away and have belief in yourself and your talent with humility and you will succeed.

      Good luck to us all. we need it 🙂

    • One of the many reasons I’m glad I started this site is how we all support each other. Thanks everyone for helping out Eddy L!

    • Hi Eddy,

      You should quit the tv/film music business and try to find something more lucrative so you can support your family. It shouldn’t be too hard. Continue to play music as a hobby. Best,

      • Yes, you are correct. I do have a boring but stable job, which enables me to feed my family. I am not knocking the music business, but it is obvious that there are chosen people. I am not one of them and I must learn to accept that. I am very grateful that my wife has been supportive of my tinkering in the studio up tthis point.

        Actually, I am kind of relieved. I could have taken off and become a huge success. But there is no telling what impact that would have had on the family dynamic. I certainly wouldn’t want to gain fame and fortune but lose my family or sense of humility. It happens to too many folks. Success happens but everything else falls apart. Just look at Charile Sheen!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

        • If you truly love music and composing you won’t be able to stop. It’s a curse we have to live with. 😀

          Good luck, John 🙂

        • Eddy,

          I am very new to this, but I believe a positive outlook will get you everywhere. Below is an e-mail I recieved about a year and a half ago from the first company I submitted to. I have worked hard to improve my skills and purchased better equipment, I am nowhere near where I wish to be, but since august my acceptance rate into libraries is pretty good and I have sold 6 songs 4 since Jan. 1st, which is more than I thought I would ever accomplish. I am no great songwriter/composer but I agree that if music is something you love you shouldn’t get discouraged and give up, sometimes life tests you to see how badly you want something.
          I’ve also included a link to a good motivational article that inspires if you feel like reading it.

          (Dear Kevin,

          Thank you very much for considering —— to represent you and your music. However, we have listened to the tracks and find they are highly synthesized, with repetitive looping and some grating and discordant musical sounds that we do not believe we will have buyers for.

          Again, we appreciate your thinking of us but unfortunately do not believe our clients would feel compelled to use your music in their productions.

          For this reason we are deleting your tracks here along with your artist record, and wish you all the best of luck in your career.)

          http://blog.discmakers.com/2010/09/progress-vs-perfection/

        • @Eddy

          You said:

          >I am not knocking the music business, but it is obvious that there are chosen people.<

          This is a hard business. After the Oscars, a reporter from a college paper asked Randy Newman to offer advice on breaking into the business. He replied “Who would want to break into it? It’s like a bank that’s already been robbed.”

          If you told your wife and friends that you wanted to take up boxing and to fight David Haye for extra money they'd probably think that you went bonkers. No one under six feet tall realistically dreams of playing in the NBA. Yet, everyone who can slap two notes together thinks that they can license music. Why?? (I'm not saying that is you.)

          >I could have taken off and become a huge success. But there is no telling what impact that would have had on the family dynamic. I certainly wouldn’t want to gain fame and fortune but lose my family or sense of humility.<

          That is pure fantasy that has nothing to do with writing music for libraries. This is a business of people who are mostly anonymous to those outside the business. (Which I think is a topic for another thread).

          John the other John is correct. If you truly love music, you won't be able to stop. But, like I said above, if you're not passionate about it, you won't stay the course. As Kevin G. observed. perhaps life tests "how badly" you want something.

          I think that you've actually taken a very intelligent step and questioned what you're doing, BEFORE you put another coin into the "slot machine."

          Best of luck to you,

          _Michael

          • >>I could have taken off and become a huge success. But there is no telling what impact that would have had on the family dynamic. I certainly wouldn’t want to gain fame and fortune but lose my family or sense of humility.That is pure fantasy that has nothing to do with writing music for libraries. This is a business of people who are mostly anonymous to those outside the business. (Which I think is a topic for another thread).

            Couldn’t agree more. Believe me, you are NOT going to get famous doing library. It’s very much the faceless man/woman’s game. Being involved in library is very very different from the commercial end of the music spectrum.

            • >Couldn’t agree more. Believe me, you are NOT going to get famous doing library. It’s very much the faceless man/woman’s game. Being involved in library is very very different from the commercial end of the music spectrum.<

              Which is exactly how I like it. The desire/drive for fame is a psychological need that has nothing to do with the creation of music, especially library music.

              What would happen if everyone correctly understood that writing music for libraries IS NOT the path to fame and fortune?

        • You’ve taken a knock and your still reeling. Take a bit of time to take it all in and when you get back on your feet you’ll know what you want to do. Continue or not. You decide. I dont want to make your mind up for you, but getting a TV placement in the EU is a sign your doing something right. Wheather you got ripped off or not, your music was probably chosen above 100s of other tracks to fit the bill. In this instance ‘ You were the chosen one’.

          You got ripped off. Take it on the chin. It happens to all of us everyday.

          Good luck with your future composing if you decide to continue.

          And remember this, Disaster is only opportunity in disguise.

    • Hi Eddy,
      just to share with you this quote that has dhelped me so far hanging on with the music:
      “In the end, perseverance and resiliance count more than talent”
      At the end of the day those who made it are for sure full of talent, some even genius, but the majority of them just did not give up and finally got presented with their opportunity of a lifetime..
      Hang on brother!!

  7. Hello, friends.
    I’m thinking about collaboration with composer agent/manager and seek any information about.
    Any agencies, forums, communities?
    Industry spilts, typical contracts?
    Bad or good experience?

    Thanks in advance for your comments!

  8. Hi,

    Can somebody recommend a good library/label for selling contemporary songs? Rock, indie style. I submitted the material to Crucial Music, but are there any other good options for licensing? Or for selling songs to labels who buy songs for other signers or something like that? Thanks!

    • I justed started doing stingers of my songs as well and would be interested in that info – also can a stinger be pretty much anything under a minute ?

      I know for obvious reasons that :15,:30 etc. is preferred but is it a hard rule that they’re those lengths ?

      thanks,john

      • Hey John,

        Stingers are usually a couple seconds long (2-7). If a client wants longer, they’ll ask for :15, :30, :60 cues.

        I know stingers do get used (unfortunately), but it seems like such a waste of space on music library sites. I did some searches on Audio Sparx and some times the first search page is filled up with 2-3 second stingers by the same composer (ranging in price from $10 – $20). I think that can be annoying to clients looking for :15.:30, and :60 cues.

        Also, some of the stingers are nothing more than holding a key down on a sample for a few seconds. A monkey could do that. 😀

        I reckon that’s how people accumulate 1,500 tracks so easily.

        • thanks John..I can see how people can get carried away with stingers – I got about 25 that I think are decent but that’s where it ends 🙂

          didn’t realize that there was a demand for stingers under 10 seconds though, where are stingers that short used ?

  10. hi michael

    yes i am about to use a sep name for non exclusive stuff – the reason being is all my stuffs ok but i dont put the extra mile into the non exclusive, its perfectly good stuff but i think if i were to have 100 ok tracks as the non exclusive stuff if someone from the big libraries was to search my name and see that i think their snobbery would come into it, they would listen to a bit and it would reflect on the demo i have sent them which is to the best of my ability. thats my thoughts on it, i wouldnt give a damn but i do think people are snobby and they want something they imagine is special etc, so for the exclusive stuff my taste changes a bit into being a little more pinpoint trendy and the non ex is not like that , its actually far more usable and my thoughts on doing non ex is that it should be something someone can easily apply and use, the exclusive stuff is becoming and sounding more like record labels , or at least thats who they are checking and becoming v.selective.

    • Hi Adam,

      Thank you for your input. That’s kind of what my gut tells me. I don’t think that the the exclusives, and even the non-exclusives are going to be very interested in “corporate” tracks. There’s no back-end and no glamour of high profile placements. I’ve spent a lot of time and money aiming my career path at the higher end market. On the other hand, I have a ton of perfectly usable tracks that don’t fit in that world. I don’t see this marketing approach as being any different than a typical entry level, mid-level and high end model e.g. Corolla, Camry, Lexus. I don’t want to limit my options, or waste usable tracks.

      Thanks again,

      Michael

    • Hey Adam,

      It’s not about snobbery…look at it from a library owners perspective. If they know you’re signing deal with non-exclusive and exclusive libraries that pay no money up front, why would they want to hire you on a cash-per-cue basis? They know you’ll work for free, so you’re automatically “too cheap” to be considered for their library..

      Many pay-per-cue libraries don’t work like that, but alot of them do.

      • “yes i am about to use a sep name for non exclusive stuff – the reason being is all my stuffs ok but i dont put the extra mile into the non exclusive” Adam

        Shame on you Adam! You should do the best on every track you do. Sounds like maybe you are a bit snobbish. 😀

        • Hi John (the other John),

          I don’t think that Adam is being snobbish. And, I don’t think that by “not going the extra mile” he isn’t doing his best work. He’s being practical.

          To use a car/product analogy, a manufacturer offers a range of models. The high end might have leather seats, 12 airbags and surround sound. The lower end may have fabric seats, 6 airbags, and stereo sound. The lower end car is not necessarily an inferior car, on which the manufacturer didn’t do its best work. It just doesn’t have all of the bells and whistles.

          When it comes to composing, I always do my best work, but I do what’s appropriate to the project and, if applicable, the budget. In a business where it takes 1500 tracks to make a lot of money, you cannot afford to spend a week on every cue. But in a field that’s saturated you cannot afford to do less than your best.

          My original question had to do with how to work in all three models, exclusive, non-exclusive and royalty free, given the perceived differences, and sometimes animosity that exists between the models. Would using pseudonyms be one way of accomplishing that?

      • Hey oontz oontz,

        I’m going to put on my lawyer hat for a moment. There’s a fundamental difference between the exclusive and the non-exclusive model. I’m not going to say that one is better than the other. They are just different. But, you are incorrect when you characterize the non-exclusive model as “working for free.”

        Generally, in the exclusive world you are creating a work for hire. You are working for the library. Exclusive libraries pay an upfront fee (sometimes an advance) because they are buying the writer out. They own the composition / copyright, lock, stock and barrel. The library may even pay the cost of production. From that point forward they can do anything they want with your music, including resell it. You may or may not get a percentage of the sync fees. One library that I know will pay you a percentage of the sync fees if you accept a lower upfront fee. I know of another library that paid minimal upfront fees to composers. The entire library has been sold and the new owner is selling all of the tracks royalty free — for which the composers are receiving zip, zero, nada.

        With respect to non-exclusive libraries, the notion that you are working for free, is incorrect, because you are not working for free, you are working for yourself. Your retain ownership of your copyrights. You get sync fees and you get a percentage of the publishing. Additionally, you are free to put your music in number of non-exclusive libraries.

        So to sum it up, you are either an employee or a business owner. Exclusive libraries pay an upfront fee because they are getting something in return — your copyright. There is nothing wrong with this. It’s a legitimate business model. Non-exclusive libraries do not pay an upfront fee because they are not getting anything in return. They do not own your music. They provide you with the service of marketing your music, and for that they receive a percentage of the sync fees and publishing. They are licensing agents. On the other hand, if an exclusive library asked for ownership of your copyrights and didn’t pay an upfront fee, that would be working for free.

        There may be a hybrid model out there, where the library/licensing agent wants exclusivity for a limited term, say two years, but does not own your music. Even under that scenario you are working for yourself.

        Under the royalty free model you are licensing permanent sync rights(more or less selling) directly to consumers. In which case, you are again working for yourself, not the library.

        My original question had to do with branding. There are perceived differences, rightly or wrongly, in quality between exclusive, non-exclusive and royalty free libraries. Some of those perceptions are only half true. There are good and bad libraries within all three models. Any library where someone actually listens to the music and decides what gets in is going to potentially have less crap in it.

        Because there are these perceived differences, my question was how can a composer work in all three models to maximize his or her income, without diluting their “brand?”

        • MichaelL: I like the way you think and write. You seem like a smart guy to me.

          Anyhow, I am also wondering the same thing – that is, should I consider using pseudonyms for each model of library.

          In my mind the pros and cons are as follows:

          Pros:
          -You protect your brand from others’ sometimes prejudiced views.
          -It is not so clear that you have 100s of tracks all over the place (I often wonder if this will turn people off you or not)

          Cons:
          -Your brand is diluted. Your name is not so widely seen and it will be harder to contact you for bespoke work etc.
          -It’s more work in administration – registering the extra names with your PRO and so on.

          Overall I feel that pseudonyms may be a good idea for a composer who has a lot of tracks.

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