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Music creators rating the music libraries.
If you have general questions or comments about the music library business please leave them here.
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This has been a particularly informative week on MLR. Thank you to all who shared your knowledge and asked the questions. Pat, you and I seem to be at exactly the same stage in this game. I like reading your posts.
Art, as promised, I just donated my entire 2011 AudioSparx 1st Quarter Earnings to MLR. Go get yourself a mediocre (like my tracks apparently) bottle of wine LOL
Cheers!
lol Very cool Alan. I would agree on all points. This site has been a treasure trove of info but as you said it seems especially this week.
The guys here are great and haven’t gotten so up there that they aren’t willing to share some really good info. This is now my go to site first thing and all day. A constant refresh when I’m taking a break.
Very cool of you to donate your earnings to MLR. I think I remember reading your post when you said you would do that. Yes, it was nice of you to donate all 30k in earnings.
Thanks Alan, it’s very much appreciated. As I’ve mentioned many times before, I learn as much as anyone here!
BTW there is a nice Mouton Cadet at Trader Joes so your donation more than covers it!
“Fair enough, but exclusives are the only way to make serious money in this biz..”
The only way to make serious money? Really?
Eddy, from the tone of your reply it IS possible to make serious money without an exclusive deal being the “only” way. I don’t have enough tunes yet to tie up with one library that may or may not do anything with them.
Glad to hear that going exclusive as being the only way is debatable.
Now, what’s “serious” money?
@AudioDesigner APM has many different libraries under its umbrella, each offering different deals, the Universal-owned libraries pay $1K each, unless you’re doing a different type of deal with them such as s distribution deal where they don’t take ownership. $2K a month from royalty free sites is great man! If I were you i’d go on google and start to find the names of the execs at these libraries. Call each of them on the phone and say that you have had success on royalty free sites but would like to be considered for Work For Hire through their library. I guarantee they will at least give your music an honest listen. It helps to have your music on a website that has some sort of link tracker that lets you know when/if your music has been listened to…
@Eddy L and Pat to make serious money in production music, you have to have multiple sources of income within the field. All of the fat cats i know ($300,000 per year and up) break it down like this..
1) Direct business with Music Supervisors (non library rate) ($30,000 sync fees + $10,000 in PRO money)
2) Blanket licenses with cable TV production companies ($5,000 in fees, $100,000 in PRO money)
3) TRAILER MUSIC ($100,000)
4) Exclusive library buy out and PRO fees ($50,000 + $50,000)
5) Custom work for projects ($50,000)
Most people can get by on any single income stream, most people start with 1, then add the others as the years go by. If you want to break into seven figure territory, beef up streams 2 and 3
That sounds really great, but the competition and pressure at those higher levels is probably not for me. I can imagine that many of the guys at the top work 80+ a week to earn those big bucks. They probably also have an army of underlings to do the dirty work while they just give directions and suggestions. I know that working at that level is attainable but not likely for a guy like me. That is why I have been asking for PRACTICAL advice.
It may be a case of sour grapes, but I get a bit annoyed at only hearing about people making 100K or more from music. Like I said earlier, no one hear besides “Anon” is sharing reasonable stories. It’s either ‘shoot-for-the-stars’ or ‘crash-to-earth-and-burn’ stories. Maybe I need to seek advice elsewhere.
I’m not trying to be a jerk here, but why exactly are you complaining? You are getting advice about ways to make money in the library industry. So your goal is to be mediocre, and you expect someone to tell you how to achieve that? Do what oontz suggested, but scale it down to fit your goals (or do a crappy job at it). Personally, I’d rather take his advice (with a huge bag of salt, because I don’t know him). Isn’t the point to get better and better and work hard to get to those higher levels?
Clearly we all have different goals for our music. Some want a career, some just want to make a few extra bucks. But aiming for average is lame.
Hey Eddy L,
You’re the Bishop Eddy L right? The production music business is similar to the clergy in that you’re either all in or all out. Someone that only wants to make a few bucks in this business will probably make none…
“You’re the Bishop Eddy L right?”
Hey Oontz, — you’re joking — right? That Eddie L is in Georgia. I believe the this Eddy L is in the UK.
Eddy –yes there’s a middle ground — with the caveat that you have realistic expectations. In this thread Matt has talked about making 150K with tracks in exclusive, non-exclusive and royalty free libraries with about 1500 tracks. Erwin (50 -Styles) stated that he made 21K last year from AudioSparx with about 180 tracks. Anon is making about $1800 (21K per year) per month with 60 tracks in an exclusive.
You can drive yourself crazy if you’re looking for formulas and guarantees — but play with the numbers if you must. Matt has 8 to 25 times the number of tracks as Erwin and Anon and he made 7+ times the money. What are the variables –exclusive, non-exclusive, royalty free?
But….Anon is making about $30 per track, per month. If Matt did that he’d be making 45K per month! You might as well get a weegie board or crystal ball.
The only thing that I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty, is that if you are going the royalty free route you need a large number of tracks. AudioSparx would like 20 to start with and Music Loops would like 30. Ask Barbie at AudioSparx or Mark at Music Loops. I’m sure they will tell you that you need a lot of tracks. In their business model, as with most royalty free libraries it’s mostly about money from sales — not backend.
That said — I gather from previous posts, that time and the number of tracks that you can produce are issues. It will be very difficult to make enough money to justify the effort if you don’t create a reasonable volume of work. It’s about quantity — not having one hit.
If you can pull together 20 cues, give AudioSparx a whirl. If you can do 30, try Music Loops.
If you only have one or two tracks, try the non-exclusive licensing route.
With respect to exclusive libraries, if you’re not in a position to produce a collection of tracks in a work for hire scenario, in a reasonable amount of time, exclusive is probably not for you. (unless you have a finished collection that you want to sell).
Under any scenario do not assume that you a living wage until you have a reasonable number of tracks.
Best,
Michael
Thanks for laying that out there oontz oontz. Definitely interesting conversation and a whole lot to think about.
Oontz,
Thanks for some very useful advice. Some valuable ideas there to implement in my plan.
Hi All, looking for your opinions on this – when you have cues that are doing well and getting placements in a non-exclusive library, what is your philosophy as far as putting them in other libraries? Do you think hey, because these are doing well here, I should put them in other libraries where they will also do well? Or do you think because they are doing well in one library that you shouldn’t make them available elsewhere, don’t flood the market, let them be available only there and leave well enough alone? Curious… thanks.
Putting aside the pros and cons of exclusive vs non-exclusive and that you fully embrace the non-exclusive route, being able to take advantage of any and all non-exclusive opportunities is the point of being non-exclusive isn’t it?
In effect, you’d be limiting yourself to a self imposed exclusive deal where one doesn’t exist right? I don’t think you get points for that and you surely won’t get anymore money.
Having the advantage of knowing your music is doing well could be a good sign the cue will do well elsewhere. That’s a problem I’d like to have.
Loyalty is clearly spelled out in an exclusive agreement.
You don’t have that so you don’t have exclusive concerns (unless you try and sign with one now).
I send out multiple submissions to non-exclusives from the start as soon as I’m finished writing it so if one started doing well, the others are already out there for who knows could happen with it. Those are better odds. In a business where odds are stacked against you, why go against yourself to boot?
Now go make that money and bring it back here and split it! jmho.
@Michael Nickolas
The thing is that all non-exclusive libraries are not the same when it comes to selling the same track. Track A may be a top seller on Library A but not on Library B and Track B might do well on B and not on A. If I could figure out the logic behind it I would make more money LOL
Bottom line is, different mainstream non exclusives do attract a different clientele. Read through the threads on the non exclusives and see that there is not such a thing as a one size fits all library,
Very true Denis. It is surprising that a track that may be your best seller on 2 or 3 sites does nothing on another. This is also why I try to write in as many different genres as I can, because agin it seems that certain sites do better in different genres. As you said if we could figure out the solution, we’d all be rich!!
“that is the point of being non-exclusive isn’t it?”
Sometimes for me the point is being able to shop it myself to opportunities I hear about directly, not necessarily to put it into too many libraries.
“In effect, you’d be limiting yourself to a self imposed exclusive deal where one doesn’t exist right? I don’t think you get points for that and you surely won’t get anymore money.”
It would be a self imposed exclusive or semi exclusive. When I look at my cue sheets over on ASCAP I can see all the music used in a show, in addition to mine. I often see multiple libraries getting their music on the show, including other ones that I have contracts with. If the music supervisor for the show heard my same piece in three different libraries, is this good or bad for me? Obviously they could go with the cheapest deal which costs me money. Or maybe that doesn’t matter because they have a blanket deal with the libraries? Or maybe they get scared hearing it in three libraries and pass on it totally? Or other scenario’s I’m missing? I’m just wondering if it is smart to take pieces that are getting placements and widely spread them around…
“> Now go make that money and bring it back here and split it!”
Ha, have you seen what the backend is on a blanket cable placement!! 🙂
“If the music supervisor for the show heard my same piece in three different libraries, is this good or bad for me? ”
I would guess that depends. What are the odds of that happening?
Also depends on your aversion to risk. I would risk it but that’s me.
I’ve heard that before about libraries finding the same songs cheaper and I just have to believe that is not something that happens as often as is portrayed by some.
Personally, I’m shopping my tunes as much as I can. Maybe someone finds it cheaper maybe not. To me the potential benefits outweigh the odds that somebody s taking the time to find my tune all over the place to get a cheaper deal.
Imagine That: music supervisors fighting over the opportunity to license my stuff! Doesn’t seem like such a bad deal. Even if I didn’t get a sync fee, which is a big probability these days, I would still get my writer’s share from my PRO. I NEED problems like that!
That’s what I’m sayin. I wouldn’t try and stop it either.
I guess some RF sites don’t really care if your tracks are in every library known to man, but I think most libraries do (especially ones targeting TV shows). A few of the ones I supply music to (that work mainly in TV) have started asking for tracks exclusively. They’re getting concerned about the future of audio recognition, and their clients are getting nervous about using libraries that re-title (their lawyers tend to freak out when they hear about re-titled library music).
It might lower your ‘perceived’ value when your exact same tracks pop up in every library (and also de-value those libraries). It could be harder for you and libraries to get huge license fees in the future (for things like trailers) if you’re hugely represented in bottom-of-the-barrel libraries (especially the one easily found online).
My experience is that very few non-exclusives actually are worth the time sending/uploading tracks to. I’ve narrowed down the ones that work for me and reward them with tracks that only a handful of other libraries have. I also try to limit the same tracks to one libraries per sector, e.g. one library focused on TV, one that deals with advertising, and one RF library. That way there’s less chance of the same tracks showing up in multiple libraries.
I think we can probably all agree that the best way to make more money as a library composer is to keep writing lots of great sounding, well produced music. It’s still unclear if (or when) the re-titling gravy train will one day come to an end. Until then, you can spend your time figuring out how many libraries will accept your tracks, or spend it writing more music.
Thanks Matt.
“A few of the ones I supply music to (that work mainly in TV) have started asking for tracks exclusively.”
Yep, happening to me too.
“My experience is that very few non-exclusives actually are worth the time sending/uploading tracks to. I’ve narrowed down the ones that work for me and reward them with tracks that only a handful of other libraries have. I also try to limit the same tracks to one libraries per sector, e.g. one library focused on TV, one that deals with advertising, and one RF library. That way there’s less chance of the same tracks showing up in multiple libraries.”
Sounds similar to what I’ve been doing, or trying to do. I’ve been spending a lot of time looking at who has what, who is placing what, and deciding which tracks should I send where. It’s time consuming and got me wondering if it is worth it. That’s why I posted my question. Doesn’t seem to be a consensus of course. 🙂 You are choosy about where your tracks go, others say put them everywhere…
Maybe there’s a common denominator there. I speak from the perspective of someone who hasn’t gotten his first license anywhere yet. So it’s hard for me to even comprehend that as a problem. My response is more knee jerk than experience.
I don’t have many cues yet while most seem to have hundreds so for me, It makes sense to get as much bang for the buck on the few I have.
I expect to try getting exclusive deals as well as non exclusives once I have more cues out there. Just don’t want to put all my eggs in one basket with so few eggs at this stage.
I guess the take away is, it depends on who you talk to.
I feel the same way. Until I become as successful as Matt, Art, or MichaelL, I can’t really say what I will or will not do.
When two people try to sell the exact same thing….not the same model or make of an object, but the same physical manifestation of the object itself, there’s only one way they can compete : PRICE….
What you create is a reverse auction, the bidding starts high, or respectable, then drops as low as it can go.
This happens every day in editing bays all over Los Angeles. Metadata plays a big part….if you have the same 10 Twangy Country tracks in libraries all over town, you can bet that the metadata is 90% the same on all of them and the music supervisors hear the same tracks over and over.
You can bet that the big budget libraries vet their composers before they hire them to work on custom music. All they have to do is look in the composers’ PRO database to see if they’re signed up with multiple re-title companies. If it comes down to you (a re-title composer) and a non re-title composer, they’ll either give the gig to the non re-titler or give you the gig at a greatly reduced rate..
If you want to make full time money with your music on a consistent basis, throwing the same composition into multiple libraries will not help you reach your goals. I have not met one composer who has made a consistent, long term living by spreading his/her tracks around to multiple TV-based (as opposed to royalty free) re-titling libraries..
For those here in LA….the Production Music Association is quickly getting chummy with the Guild of Music Supervisors. Many of the top Music Supervisors are speaking on PMA panels and attending PMA events. A membership requirement of the PMA is that their libraries do not use re-titled compositions.
The Supervisors actively speak out at these events regarding the COUNTLESS times they’re pitched the same track from multiple sources, some sources having set library deals with the network, while others do not.
What happens when a show has a $5000 music budget for a certain song in a scene, but then they get pitched the EXACT SAME COPYRIGHT by a company that has a $500 per use library deal?
The company that was able to secure the $5000 rate for YOU THE COMPOSER, gets shafted in favor or a company that thinks your song is only worth $500 NO MATTER THE BUDGET OF THE SHOW.
And you as a composer just lost $2,250 (assuming each library takes 50% of the sync)…
This literally happens on a weekly basis…
ALSO!
The cable reality shows that use retitled music are on networks that pay AT BEST 1/7th the performance royalties as the large cable reality networks that shun retitling. If you’re landing a ton of placements on OWN, E!, Bravo, TRU TV, and Oxygen you’re literally making fractions of a cent per second. The best paying cable network (that has a ton of reality shows by the way) pays FORTY EIGHT cents a second for a prime time use (ASCAP 2010).
As always my standard closing comment…if you’re going to debate this PLEASE do so in a quantitative manner. I threw out some factual numbers so please do the same, thanks!!!
Oontz, the only number that I have to put out there is zero, because I am making that much right now. I don’t think I’ll ever be a full time composer. I just don’t make music at that level. But I would like to make around $5,000 to $10,000 a year from licensing music.
I just do not see why you either have to make nothing or 100K a year. Where’s the in-between market? I would like for someone who makes between $5,000 to $10,000, maybe up to $20,000 a year to speak on how they got started and how they got to where they are now. I just feel that people here come off as either ultra successful or utter failures. Practical advice seems to be lacking. It’s just too many arguments and debates to gain any serious advice anymore. 🙁
Ok Eddy L, well, behind anonymity, here’s my story, which I consider to be pretty inbetween – i.e. nothing special.
I started 21 months ago with library music. I contacted 6 libraries with demo tracks. 4 replied wanting to include me. 1 of those seemed decent and didn’t already have 50 billion tracks. I went with them. I now have 60 tracks with them. I have made $16,500 so far in up front fees, and $100 in backend royalties. At the beginning I was making $400 a month with 10 tracks, now I am making $1,800 a month with 60 tracks. The library is exclusive. The people running it are really good people who value the music. They spend serious money to promote it. I have been lucky as the music I made for them was exactly what they were missing. Consequently many of my tracks are at the top of their charts in certain genres. At current standing, I make $21,600 a year pro rata.
It would be false of me to pretend that I don’t live in fear that someone comes along with music in my style and bumps me out of the rankings I have achieved. That would be painful.
I am also about to sign off 25 tracks to a couple of non-exclusives to see how it goes. My expectations of this are low, but the tracks might as well be put somewhere (I wouldn’t put them with my main library as I don’t think they’re up to that).
So besides worrying that my music will stop earning well in my main library, and/or that my genre will no longer be desirable, I feel ok about it. All I have to do now is repeat this process 5 times and I will be earning something which can be considered “serious money”.
My advice…if you’re not already a super music god,
Pick a library:
Which has under 15,000 tracks in it. Preferably under 10,000.
Where they reply to you in a positive, timely manner
Which doesn’t already have lots of tracks in your genre (unless yours are supreme)
Whose website is well designed and conducive to buying, and is easy to search
Thanks Anon. Very interesting story. Something to really think about if, like me, you’re new to this. The main challenge us newbies face is getting the first license and we have no idea where that will come from be it exclusive or non exclusive. That’s my first focus right now is the first license. Very cool to see how it can shape up.
Hey Anon,
Congrats on your success in a relatively short period of time.
Cheers,
Michael
Wow! Thank you do much for sharing your story. This is the kind of good news that I like to hear about. Definitely inspiring to say the least.
Eddy L,
Think of the large music libraries, APM, Killer Tracks etc…each one of those libraries has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of tracks. Each one of those tracks has been bought and paid for, for an average price of $1,000.
Instead of writing a whole catalogue of tracks quickly in hopes of them getting picked up by a re-titler, really concentrate on writing a few AMAZING tracks.
These large libraries are actively searching new composers, because they have to keep feeding their library. These libraries buy or commission up to 3,000 tracks each year, PER LIBRARY!!!
Which do you think is easier, selling 5 tracks a year at $1K each total to all of the large libraries, or getting your music played on an awful cable station(s) for 70 hours, to equal $5,000 in performance royalties..
If you luck out and land some primetime cable placements on a well paying network you can replace the 70 hours with 40 hours..
Meaning if you added up all of your placements and airings, you’d need atleast 40 continuous hours of music to even hope to get to $5,000 in performance royalties in one year.
Think about it…
Interesting post.
I guess the real question for me is should I do direct sells for front end money or sign my music to libraries for back end royalties? I am thinking that backend royalties for most people aren’t really that great, even those who have great tracks in exclusive libraries. The few exclusives I tried gave me the cold shoulder, so I am not going to chase that path. I probably need to focus on placing my songs with royalty-free libraries and get my money now as opposed to worrying about placements and waiting on cue sheets. This definitely gives me something to think about.
“The few exclusives I tried gave me the cold shoulder, so I am not going to chase that path.”
Fair enough, but exclusives are the only way to make serious money in this biz. Rejection is part of the game I’m afraid. It’s a hard business and a person can get demoralised by it or use it to motivate them to another level.
I make a very good living from library now. It bought my house and car etc. Great eh? I must have struck it lucky maybe? Nope. It required quite a bit of sacrifice and risk which I won’t bother going into because you mentioned you only want to hear stories of people from the ‘in between market’. So anyway, moving on…
The point I am making is that I have a box full of rejection letters going back to 2002. Some quite insulting i.e one guy I rang up for feedback said it sounded like it had been recorded in a toilet. That was depressing.
But rejection is a useful tool – we can learn from it and use it to improve. That may sound patronising, and I don’t mean it to be, but there is some truth to it.
When you consider the 2-3 billion composers who are now trying to get into writing library, it’s perhaps one of the toughest things to make a living at.
IMO
Well…
If you want to make $5000 within a year, and the average sales price of a royalty free track nets you $100…that means you’ll need to sell 1 track per week, each week for a year..
If i may suggest you take 6 months and make the best 10-15 tracks you’ve ever made, then take another 6 months and try to sell them to large budget libraries that pay $1,000 per track…
These large budget libraries buy tracks on a daily basis in every genre you can think of…
oontz, can you please specify which libraries do you refer to, which are buying out tracks for $1000 each? if you mean APM, Killer Tracks and such, I’ve emailed them about a year ago with some demos, haven’t got any response, though the same tracks sell really well on non-exclusive libraries.
I’ve been in this business for several years, have some good sales on Royalty-free sites, averaging about $2K per month, but I want to get into more serious libraries, could you suggest some libraries which do buy-outs for such huge amounts of money? Or maybe my approach is not good, would it be better to send a demo via regular mail on a CD?
Thanks!
Can any suggest any good sites for licensing indie style music? thanks
Hey Ja man,
that’s what the ratings section is about.
Curious if anyone can tell me what they charge clients for blanket licenses (monthly or yearly)? I am trying to negotiate one with any advertising arm of a fairly big corporation for my 200 track library. They would use it for local TV ads and the occasional national one. Any ideas on a fair price (for me and them)?
Hey ‘Blind’, congrats man, this could be a really good thing. However, without knowing the details, I don’t really understand why you (or they) would want to sign a blanket deal. It might end up being a bad deal for you (if tracks get used a lot on national spots), or possibly a bad one for them (if they don’t use your music very much).
To price it, you’d have to figure how much they’re going to use your music, the likelihood of regional vs national usage, and if it might lead to better paying work down the road (like custom writing for national spots).
From my experience, regional spots pay $100-$1000 for an existing track, $500-$2000 for an original track.
For national spots, the figures vary even more – the library licenses (i.e. existing music) I’ve seen have been $800-$3000, and for original music it could be anywhere from $4000 to $20,000+ (the big guys can get way more than this).
I know… I totally agree with you and that’s why I’m struggling with it…
It’s hard to find this kind of pricing online too. I saw one library doing around $1500, which I thought was very low. I don’t know what to do…
Hi Blind, A TV production company that I did some work for claimed they ended up paying $2500 a year for use of a major library (I won’t reveal that name here). All of their shows were on lifestyle cable channels. Don’t know if it’s true or any more details but that’s what I was told.
Thanks, Art. That’s extremely helpful. I guess that library was also counting on a little back end too, even though usages on those channels might not pay much per use, they could add up. I was actually thinking in the $2500 range since these are for ad use, which definitely usually gets more upfront money, but didn’t if I was shooting low…
A lot of smaller libraries are willing to give their entire catalogs to a show for free, because they’re in it for the publishing. Your situation is different – there’s very little back end (if any) on commercials – they don’t often get picked up by the PROs. It all depends on how much they’re going to be using your library, but I wouldn’t offer a blanket deal for less than $5k. You might be able to get a lot more than that too, if the company is still getting a great deal.
It’s interesting that you said 5K b/c after thinking more about it I thought about it this way: allowing for 12 months of use at $300/mo figuring that they use 1-2 tracks per month and then tacking $1400 on to that for the possible national spot and making that $5K even. I don’t know…
Enough already! Every single recent comment has Audiomicro in it. I can’t even tell if there are any other interesting threads being pushed off! I don’t come here for tit-for-tat arguments.
Too bad you can’t filter it out like you can when you get emails notifying you of replies to a particular thread.
That would be great Pat. Maybe Art can find a plug that simply lists say 15 threads with recent posts. That way the AudioMicro thread (for example) might stay at the top of the list for awhile but other threads with recent posts would still be easy to find.
Thankfully this doesn’t happen too often but when it does, it’s frustrating for those of us who don’t care.
Yeah, been looking all day for a plug in to cap the number of comments per post. I had one but it was broken. Still looking. If i have to I will close the comments on that listing for awhile.
Thanks for your patience everyone!
Cheers Art, we appreciate your hard work, and I didn’t mean to sound like I was complaining. It’s merely frustrating. Whatever you’ve done is welcome, mate! 🙂
This is great Art. Nice seeing something other than micro for a change.
Pat,
I think that you can manage your preferences. I turned all of my notifications off, and just check in to read threads. I recall having access to preferences when I unchecked “notify me of follow-up comments” at the bottom of the page.
Maybe Art can explain.
Best,
Michael
Hi Michael,
Yeah, I know about the filtering of library post choices when you choose not to stop receiving followup comments for different library threads.
I was responding to Advise with the idea that it would be cool, though not something I’d be hellbent on, if you could somehow have the same option for the left side of this page where I think he was referring to so you could somehow bypass a single ongoing thread and still be able to see who else might be posting on other topics.
Pat
Ok, got the old plugin back up that limits the display to the last comment per post. Hopefully it’s “healed” itself!
Oh, you are good! I don’t begrudge posting but it is nice not to have to see every post of the same thread all day at the expense of not being able to see any other threads.
Thanks Art!
Pat
Thank you Pat for your and everyone’s patience. It’s been bugging me all day!
Holy crap! How did I not know about this website? Phenominal recourse. I’ve been making between 50-70k a year with one company but I really want to branch out as I have a baby coming in may. Really need to step my game up.
Such a wealth of knowledge.
Does anyone here know of any existing music libraries in Ireland or Northern Ireland. I know about Muziko in Dublin, any others?
Thanks Musicman,
I really appreciate your opinion and I don’t want to get into any arguements either – I’m way too new to this and have already gotten into discussions that illustrate that! I find it interesting that you only have exclusive libraries in your list – I’ve only submitted to non-exclusive, just to get an idea what the interest is. I just finished another collection (about 50 minutes) and trying to decide who to send them to. I started fall 2010 and have 6 collections already with about 12 libraries (non-exclusive).
I want to do everything I can to get my music out there, in film or tv, video games, and wherever else. This site is wonderful but a resource I might lose, so again, your input was very helpful and thanks for taking the time to post. I think the composers on this list provide some incredible insight and I hope to learn from all of you as I begin this new career.
Respectfully,
Cari
(noob)
No problem. There are plenty others too, I just named the ones off the top of my head & alphabetically so that’s not a list of 1 through whatever. I didn’t mean that you would dispute them as being good…..in the past I’ve seen people start debates over these things, so that’s what I meant in the original post.
Yes, they are all exclusive. That’s the only way I’ve ever worked. I didn’t even know about the non-exclusive model until about a year ago. The exclusive model works for me and I like the work flow of drawing up a concept, pitching it and doing an album for a company that I know will get it used in production. A lot of these companies pay you a nice amount up front and you keep your writers share, so you’ll always be earning. (just a note: these companies don’t usually like the “do-it-all” type composers, they’ll want what you’re best at & they’ll want something that stands out.)
I will try some of these non-exclusive types eventually but I have concerns with how a lot of them operate. For some people, that model just works better so one is definitely not better than the other. See how the way you’re going works for you and keep your options open.
@Musicman
>(just a note: these companies don’t usually like the “do-it-all” type composers, they’ll want what you’re best at & they’ll want something that stands out.)<
I understand that approach to a certain degree. Differences in demographics and cultural backgrounds can make it difficult for writers to pull off many styles authentically or convincingly.
Coming from a film/tv background, I write what the project demands, which often covers many styles and genres. Hence, my experience with libraries has been to have them ask me to do the same — write what they need on demand.
Cheers,
Michael
You are definitely an exception. I didn’t mean that all people should take that approach. If you’re doing the kind of projects you’re doing you need to have those capabilities.
I’m just repeating what I’ve been told numerous times. Sorry if that came across wrong.
>Sorry if that came across wrong.<
No, not at all. I understand where the libraries are coming from. If I tried to do authentic hip hop, on my own, it would probably sound as good as I would look if I wore my hat sideways. 😆
But, as an experienced composer/producer, if I had a budget, I could/would hire the right musicians to pull it off.
I think that on some level this is where the exclusive, non-exclusive, and perhaps royalty free worlds diverge. I could see posting all kinds of tracks on royalty free sites. I can do them — why not? But, for top tier exclusives and selective non-exclusives, where I'm pitching projects, 99% of the time it would involve some form of orchestration, because that's what I do best. (At least — that's the pigeon-hole I've been in).
So, your not wrong.
Michael
Right on. You explained it much better than me, perhaps that’s why you were an attorney lol. It’s different under all circumstances, and I was referring to conversations I had with some people from some of the libraries I listed above.
There’s a fundamental difference between libraries that select what get’s in the door and pay for it, and the self-serve, upload your tracks sites. I’m NOT criticizing or advocating for either model.
Like I said above, a top tier exclusive would probably not want to pay me to do hip hop or R n’ B, or country etc. Why would they, when they have access to the same people who work with 50 cent, Rodney Jerkins, or the best session players in Nashville?
The royalty free download sites in contrast are a great egalitarian opportunity that gives everyone a chance to so something with their music. And, that results in a lot of inauthentic music in the market. You might have a writer halfway around the world posting their rendition of cajun zydeco — which isn’t within a country mile of actually being zydeco. I’ve got a ton of world instrument samples, but I’m not going to fool anyone in Russia into thinking that I’m a real balalaika orchestra. I’ve got fiddles, flutes and frame drums, but I’m not going to sound anywhere as good the guys who play in the pubs of Dublin.
On the other hand, you can take those sounds and genres, do something different and creative with them, and then you’re onto something.
Just passing thoughts.
Michael
@MichaelL I am reading this thread with interest and a passing smile and nod of the head.
Certainly with ethnic music you really need a grounding in it to do it justice. I would actually include Rap/Hiphop/Urban music as a form of ethnic too. It comes from a sphere of influence and lifestyle that I dont belong to. As a musician and composer I can analyze, and maybe pastiche it, but thats about it. As you said in a previous comment, if required I would hire someone with that experience to do it.
Talking of Irish traditional music of which I do have some experience of, it really is in the ears of the beholder. James Horner’s score for Titanic with its mockup Enya vocals and tin whistles is really one of the worst offenders when it comes to translating Irish music to the big screen. Nobody outside of Ireland complained and it certainly didn’t affect the movies grosses !!!!
Also as a sidenote I was contacted by a MAJOR Hollywood comnposer a while ago about how I got certain sounds etc. He was really anxious to get all my preset sounds etc. Little did he know it was all done on a Prophet 5 and a Roland JD800 with mostly stock sounds with a few tweeks. Lesson being, its the way you play the instrument, voice chords etc, which are the most characteristic, not necessarily the the sounds themselves.
I suppose the reason the “Titanic” score upsets me so is its that aspect they got so badly wrong. Nothing to do with the players on it, they would outplay me with their little fingers. It was a form of music that they had no grounding in. Which brings me neatly back to why I would never attempt a Rap/Hiphop track LOL
Hi Denis,
I wasn’t offended by Titanic — because I don’t have your cultural heritage.
Curiously I found that much of the iconic pad and flute sound associated with that score was very similar to the intro and parts of the arrangement to “Tramps and Hawkers” by the Battlefield Band (Scotland), circa 1997. http://www.battlefieldband.co.uk/discography.htm
Just my imagination I’m sure, or a cultural reference to a traditional song.
Cheers,
Michael
@MichaelL Of course Scottish and Irish traditional music being very closely linked except in Ireland we dont have the BAGPIPES !!. No offence to the Scots. LOL
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bringing-Back-Home-Various-Artists/dp/B000050XNM
This is an album of a TV series which catalogued the influence of Irish music into various different cultures especially in America where of course a lot of us landed over the years. Facinating stuff which covers irish music all the way to u2
The Titanic reference is really to show that in the wider scheme of things it really doesn’t matter what you do to get the result. I am certainly in a minority with that one, as you say it touched a cultural and artistic nerve. I think he got an Oscar for it.
I suppose this ties in to a lot of the Irish music on library music sites both exclusive and non exclusive certainly not being authentic at all, but does it really matter. Not at all IMHO. It serves it purpose and reflects in a general way what the wider world thinks of as ‘Irish music’ This of course is the same for any genre you care to mention.
To comment on the wider issue I would certainly only submit to libraries what I am comfortable doing and also feel I can do well. When it comes to TV/Film scoring then its another kettle of fish as you know. Your compositional and adaptable chops come into play much more as you dont know what the next cue will entail.
Yes, in the ears of the beholder.
I’m not Irish but my dad’s band played a lot of jigs and reels so I have a certain sense of that music. I recently wrote my version of an Irish cue that I’m sure would not measure up to real players from Ireland. Then again someone in Dublin purchased it just before St. Patrick’s day this year. Go figure.
@ Art Cest la vie
There’s a term that some sciences use for identifying animals in the wild, particularly birds. It’s called GSS — “general shape and size.” I think that in commercial musical there’s a form of GSS that operates. People hear a certain sound, like in Titanic, and based upon its generalities make the association with a certain kind of music, like Irish music.
As music gets assimilated into the mainstream it becomes a watered down version of the original. Of course of this is tied to demographics. An ad for urban clothing aimed at 18 year olds is going to need the real deal when it comes to something like hip hop or indie rock.. You won’t be able to fool the kids.
However, when a car maker, for example, wants to suggest to a soccer mom that her mini van is actually trendy — the music might be a sanitized form of hip hop, with just enough groove, and just enough low end to de-stigmatize the mini van, so her kids aren’t embarrassed. And, the fact is Mom doesn’t know that the hip hop isn’t the real deal. It just sounds good.
So, I guess there’s a place in the library world for writers who can mainstream different genres.
Hey Cari. You seem to be in a very similar situation as myself. I started writing music for libraries in end 2009 and so far ive only been involved with non exclusive libraries. I would love to make the leap from non ex to ex libraries, but im finding it a very difficult leap to make. I have music at the moment that im holding on to until i feel i have enough good content to be in with a decent chance of being accepted by a good exclusive library. But at the same time im thinking if i just go ahead and give them to a non ex library ill make a little money on them now instead of holding out for god knows how long on an ex deal that might never happen. its difficult to know what to do with your music in this growing industry.
If you don’t take the chance and put it out there to see what bites you get, you’ll never know.
Cari,Your situation is very similar to mine almost.
I have about 13 different deals mostly non-exclusive,
and about 6 cds of stuff but thats taken a few years.
We started our 1st cd back in 2008 and we are in it for the long haul..
I do some private teaching,gigs,and some tv projects I get on my own
so making money full time from Library is not on the screen just yet,but the checks
are starting to come in from a couple of the deals,1 is exclusive
and has gone up every quarter for a couple of years,and the other non-ex. and it has gone up each of the last 2 quarters.The Libraries are right here @MLR
I have read other examples of writers who have 100s of tracks out there and are able to
make enough to do it full time but the competition to have your music in these companies
isn’t getting any easier.
Great tracks always help, better yet connections in the biz will take you further than anything else will.
In response to Cari Live. “You mentioned there are some really really really good libraries listed on here with low ratings. I don’t want to be overlooking a lot of high-end quality music libraries – what would you recommend, in general, is the top 20?”
Well this will depend on what kind of business model you’re looking for. The following libraries are the type that you’ll have to call and find out what they’d accept…. if they’re even open to taking submissions at the time. Or just try your luck sending a cd.
Just off the top of my head here are a few quality ones…
5 Alarm
Extreme
Firstcom
Killertracks
Megatrax
Non-Stop
Sonoton
West One
These are all exclusive btw, but don’t let that scare you. If these libraries take your material, you will be paid and should do well on the back-end.
The other model (Which I’m not so familiar with) is where you set up an account w/a profile and license your music through their website. I’d rather someone else answer that for you, but from reading a lot of posts on here, Audiosparx seems to be a nice one. I know pump was popular at one time but I’ve heard a lot of negative stuff lately.
I’m not showing any favoritism above and am not looking to get into a debate with anyone on here of which is good and isn’t good. Hope my opinion helps.