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well I think Art is perfectly entitled to charge whatever he wants to allow people to join the site, as everyone is perfectly entitled to decide not to join or to organize something else on a free basis, a forum for example.
as a paying customer what I would argue about is the functionality of the service provided, the ‘general comments’ section for example is almost impossible to navigate.
#tag said: “the ‘general comments’ section for example is almost impossible to navigate.”
Yep, I agree and this has come up before. Some would like a forum setup but splitting the site into two separate sites (one for questions and one for listings) would be even more confusing. Porting everything over to a forum isn’t possible, at least I haven’t found a solution. I’m open to suggestions though.
Reading this post just reminded me that I’m no longer getting that jerky problem I was having for the longest time when I slide the scrolling side bar up and down. Man was that a headache. Don’t know what happened to fix it but it’s fixed.
Glad to hear that Pat. I’m not sure I even know what fixed it, I just kept trying different things!
You could have sub forums for general questions, newbie question and for each library. Library sub forums could have a sticky post at the top of each with the library’s details. Each library could also have a stick post that is a poll. That way users can vote/rate the library.
Lots of forums us vBulletin forum software. One I visit regularly is the gear page (http://www.thegearpage.net/board)
The only thing I would take the time to convert from this site would be the library detail. All the rest could start from scratch. I would leave the old site as a link somewhere for searching/reference.
I agree with gdomeier, it shouldn’t be too hard to have a forum section, perhaps external, and leave the library ratings here
The biggest problem is that there is a lot of valuable info in the current threads that would/could get lost in the transition. That is the biggest stumbling block for me.
I’m looking at BBPress which integrates with WordPress, still the same problem though.
Perhaps you could find an outsourcing company in India or the Phillipines who would do the laborious job of converting the site into a forum fairly affordably. Once you get a good quote, you could then raise funds for it – sounds like there are a lot of composers who would be motivated enough to pay money to see the site switched over to a forum style layout.
Thanks Mark, that is an angle and I have worked with a company in India before.
Please check out https://musiclibraryreport.com/blog/mlr-forum-test/. I think this just might do it and still keep what I already have.
You may already have checked into this but… Have you looked at creating a free forum using proboards? Anyone can create a forum in seconds for free. You have to pay a few dollars a month to keep it ad free– you could probably take a few donations to cover that.
phpBB is another vendor of free “instant forum” software.
Question: Does your current software for this site support export everything to Excel or comma-delimited format? If so, there MIGHT be a way to import that to a forum in proboards or phpBB software.
Thanks Advice. I’m going to fire up bbPress here in the next couple of days and see how that works. It’s tightly integrated with WordPress so I can keep it all within the existing MLR shell.
I agree that it’s time for Art to give back. I don’t care about the free site. I want my share of the 50k! Lets see, 50k divided by the number of MLR members, lets see, carry that over, borrow from the 5,….28 thousand dollars for my share anyway. The rest of you guys can work it out
This is not fair to Art or Synth.
Art can defend himself..which he did.
I think everyone here respect Art.
But everyone is entitled to their opinion
Otherwise this site will just be for cheerleaders of the same team and nothing
in this game changes.
That is what good debating does.
It brings out the REAL arguments to an issue
for others to decide
Don’t be cheerleader just cause Art owns the site.
Respect Art and the game
I don’t know what I would do without Art and his site. So he want to get some of his investment back, who are you to tell him not to? Who are you to decide if 50k is enough for him? Maybe he need to support somebody? you never know, dont ever Judge someone else.
I have been following this conversation for the last few days and want to jump in, I really think it does take time for art to manage this site, look how many comments there are and how much he must have to edit and adjust things. he’s tried getting advertisers to pay on the site and he had to come up with a decision to either leave the site or charge for it. He’s done a good job with the site and maybe at some point there will be a time when all the libraries dig deep and pay for the site. But you know synth man, do you have time every day to host a site, edit comments, correct information , in the aft and eve ? Would you synth man or anyone else be willing to do that for free ? I work on music all day and I know I would never have time to do it. You really should think about being an individual and making music then also running a site for no profit , I think from the little I know that Art is a really nice guy, and it’s easy to make flippant comments saying he should spend hours a day on maintaing a site for free, making sure spammers and people lying from companies do not post untrue info on their companies. I’m sure during the year this site takes quite a lot of work and has taken many hours of arts life, it’s ok not to want to pay, infact I don’t , but I would never question the decision he has had to make. Respect Art !
That’s not cool, bro. I never disrespected Art.
Synth player, you did.
FAUXMUSICSUPE does often make valid points. But I guess his delivery could be deemed offensive to people without a tolerance for profanity and crude language.
I read his posts and I can tell that he means well. I guess that people who are having a hard time licensing music will be offended. Also, libraries with bad business practices will be offended as well. I am glad that FAUXMUSICSUPE doesn’t hold any punches. He has not told one lie.
I don’t have any problems with FAUXMUSICSUPE’s points and I agree with him. It’s his delivery I have a problem with. Look, I spent four years in the Marine Corps so there is nothing about profanity that anyone can teach me or that I haven’t heard before, especially from Parris Island drill instructors! I just choose not to take that road when having a conversation or trying to make a point. I also think that it makes for a more civil discourse to leave out the profanity.
BTW Synth Player your comment: “I guess that people who are having a hard time licensing music will be offended.” is about the silliest comment you have made yet.
Art, I agree.
He said that you cant make a living licensing music non-exclusively, do you agree with that?
I guess I should have been clearer but it was very hard to read through his points while wading through all the non-essential clutter. I agree with many of his points but as far as “making a living” you first have to define that phrase. This has come up many times here on MLR. What is your definition of making a living? Mine will most likely be different than yours.
I believe I can. I think I will hit $50k this year (it’s been going up every year and I started about six years ago). To me that’s not enough as I’m shooting for $100k but to some $50k may be plenty.
Well, I think 50K is the minimum for making a living, so yes, you can make a living out of non-exclusive music. Can I ask, with how many tracks?
Haven’t counted lately as my database includes all the alts. I’m guessing about 400 tracks and many have two to three alts, sometimes more. Also not all libraries have all tracks.
Cool, thanks for the info.
Just to be clear about that $50k number. The key phrase in that statement is “I think I will”. It’s based on my first two PRO statements and RF sales. That number can easily change and at the end of the year I will happily share that number to those who ask. I think most folks appreciate hard numbers.
“I think most folks appreciate hard numbers.”
I do! AND I appreciate you sharing that number with everyone, that is a very personal thing to share, sorry you had to get some flack for sharing it.
It helps for me to judge where I could be in 5 years. Thanks Art!!
My comment may seem silly to you, but it makes sense to me.
Not trying to argue, but I think composers can definitely learn something from FAUXMUSICSUPE. Whether his delivery is appropriate is besides the point. He is teaching valuable lessons the best way that he knows how. He is getting the attention he needs to be heard. The best part is that the information is free!!!
Of course he could have written a book that goes into specific details and pointers. But there are many books out there with that info. Why pay for info that should be free?
Even this site went from free info into a pay-to-play model. I understand business, but why hide imfo by making people pay for everything? It is hard enough for most musicians to make a dollar. I just do not see the justice in discrediting a free source of valuable info. Everyone else is so caught up with hiding info and charging money. Whatever happened to helping people? The obsession with money is kind of annoying.
I’m not hiding FAUXMUSICSUPE because I don’t agree with him. I do disagree with his delivery method and do not want that tone on MLR.
And as far as paying for info. I try to find a balance here between free and pay. There are numerous ways to attain free access on MLR. I doubt you have ever developed and run a website or you would understand how many hours it takes every day to maintain one. Time is all we have and what you choose to do with your time is your choice. You certainly expect to be paid for the time you spend making music, working a job, etc. but you seem to resent my being paid for my time. Really?
This site used to be free. Why can’t it stay free? I know sites cost money to run, but you really do not need money. All you have to do is let people post stuff and make donations. You were just bragging about how you are going to make $50,000 a year. That is in passive income.
Most musicians have never made $5,000 a year. People with college degrees are barely making $50,000 a year. I just do not see how a site can be free one day, then charge money when the money is not needed. You should open the site back up as a service to the music community.
Musicians share their knowledge here for free and you are making money from free info. What part of the game is that? You are doing very well for yourself. It is time to give back. With great power comes great responsibility. You hold the power. How are you going to be responsible with it?
synth said: “but you really do not need money.”
How presumptuous can you get! Who are you to say or dictate what I need or how I run my life? You really need to grow up and get a grip. I would never in a million years presume to tell someone how they should live and for you to do show only illustrates your lack of maturity.
If you are so upset with MLR why do you continue to keep coming back? I have an idea, why don’t you go ahead and start your own site. Oh, I forgot that would take real work on your part, something you are probably not willing to do.
BTW, this conversation stops here. I should know better than feed the troll!
“…but you really do not need money.”
oh man. That’s quite a conclusion.
@ Synth Player
I make it a point to not post/reply to the rants on this site. I prefer to read and learn. But you really annoyed me with your childish comments. “This site used to be free. Why can’t it stay free?” I would guess you are a twenty something producing tracks in moms basement for a comment like that. “But mom, I used to live here for free, what do you mean I have to pay rent and buy my own food?”
Sorry for that personal attack, but when you attack Art and MLR, you attack me because I need this site.
Let me tell you why this site is valuable, Synth Player.
In 2009, at 45 years old and making my entire living (supporting a family of 5) in music, I began this pursuit with a goal to become a semi-pro music library/TV composer. I had invested in a DAW and an Online certificate through Berklee. I didn’t know ANYTHING about what to do next. My only experience was in the 1990’s when I sent CD’s to libraries listed in the “Songwriter’s Market.” I had five tracks accepted in DSM, never heard from them again.
So, I start writing music and Googling. Who do I submit to? Is this a fair contract? I had a million questions and absolutely no one to ask.
Then I stumbled on this FREE site called MLR. All this information! Answers to all of my questions plus answers to questions I hadn’t thought to ask yet. Industry pros willingly giving insider information to the “competition” (HA). I lurked and read and took notes and learned for free.
I found great libraries that didn’t show up in “Music Library” searches.
I learned about non-exclusive libraries, sync fees, blanket licenses, blah blah blah.
One of the most valuable lessons was that this is a long, slow road.
I chose my submissions carefully, I did not submit blindly to every library on the list (only 11 for me).
My first sale was one of the great moments of my musical life, comparable to by first paying gig. The first TV placement, WOW!
Guess what Synth Player, without MLR, IT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED! I’d still be stumbling around blindly submitting to the RF sites at the top of the Google searches.
I gladly donated my 1st small payout to MLR … and my 2nd, because I knew the value of what MLR GAVE me.
The day my Gratis 6 month membership expired (thank you Art)I gladly PAID for a lifetime membership, Synth Player. AND, if the site closes tomorrow, I got my monies worth!
As of now I stand at 19 TV placements for 2011. I owe that to MLR. Yes, that is a laughable number to the seasoned pros, but that number started at 0 and is growing thanks to the info I get from, you guessed it Synth Player, MLR.
One final thought young Synth Player. Think before you speak.
-Ask Art how many hours he puts in per week managing this site.
-Multiply that number by the 150+ WEEKS he’s been doing this.
-How many cues could he have written in those hours?
-What is his motivation for that work? -Would you be willing to put in that much time to help me find a place to sell my music for free? I didn’t think so, Synth Player.
Why don’t you take this Friday’s gig money, pay Art for a lifetime membership and thank him for what he does.
And the choir said “Amen”
“You were just bragging about how you are going to make $50,000 a year.”
WHAT???!!!! Where does that stuff come from? Art was asked a question and he answered it. He gave INFORMATION, the very thing that you accuse him of hiding.
Here’s some free information:
Rule #1, that trumps a composer’s talent and skill level: Be a professional. “People skills” are the most important thing that you can develop in this business. The higher up you go in the library food chain the less they will tolerate “attitude,” unless you are a superstar. They don’t have time for it.
@ SynthPlayer – why should information be free? It always costs someone, somewhere, time and money to acquire it to start with. It’s the choice of who has the information, whether or not to pass it on for free. And when it also costs time and money to operate a website like this, Art has every right to charge for it. He’s providing a valuable service.
The beauty of a free market economy is if *you* want it free then *you* can start your own website and publish information and attract top notch professionals, and manage site traffic and content and offer it for free. But you don’t get to demand that other people accede to your wants.
I deleted the rant you posted from FAUXMUSICSUPE. No matter how valid his/her points are, anyone who writes like a spoiled five year old who just discovered every expletive ever uttered has no place on MLR.
@ Bigg Rome…from Merriam-Webster
1: a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
2: trenchant wit, irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly
The question is whether fauxmusicsupe is satirizing sleazy shallow hollywood stereotypes or desperate composer stereotypes, or both. Very convincing job on all fronts. One can almost see the lines on the mirror.
As with any good satire, there’s enough truth to keep you wondering.
“Prius”….there goes the stereoype.
You can update your FMN post (loved it BTW). Just got this from them.
“Music needed immediately for short film already selected for the Cannes Film Festival in May. The original composer is no longer attached to the project, and they are looking for new music to either be composed, or they will consider licensing existing tracks. There is no budget available for music.”
Now they’re charging 6 bucks for the privilege of being “considered” for a short film “already selected for the Cannes Film Festival.” NO MONEY, but oh wouldn’t that look good on my resume?
SAYS: “The original composer is no longer attached to this project.”
MEANS: He got a paying gig.
Desperate filmmakers understand how to prey on composer desperation.
FMN has been helpful to me as well.
I think people get too bent out of shape about music licensing these days. I see it as coming from not being able to compete. The game has changed. It is up to composers to adapt.
Libraries are not going to change to benefit the composers. They are there to benefit the clients that they have. Composers have to be beneficial to the libraries. It definitely is not a 50/50 relationship all of the time. But a good library will do more good in the long run. Composers just have to be patient and stop attacking companies.
This is nonsense
I wouldn’t be that tough on FMN for running this listing. They do run a lot of good library listings and I’ve gotten deals and placements because of them.
No one is twisting anyone’s arm to spend 6 bucks to submit for this. And, as a member, for me it would only be 2 bucks. One can always just hit “delete” and wait for the next one. I agree, however, that they’ve run a lot of low budget listings lately.
Though it’s very long odds, a gratis placement with an unknown filmmaker, still at the festival stage, MIGHT one day lead to something more. Contacts are always good. If I had a perfect track for that listing, I’d probably have thrown the 2 bucks at it.
It’s the filmmaker who’s trying to get free custom music, not FMN.
I get that, Blind… But the listing does say they will also consider existing tracks. So, my take is for SOME folks, it might not be a bad idea to pitch 1-2 existing tracks and see what happens. A much tougher decision would be whether it would be worth the hours to do custom work for $0 on such long odds that anything will ever come of it. There are composers who will find it worth it just for the experience. If someone has never written custom cues before, there MIGHT be a lot to learn from it.
And again, no one is twisting anyone’s arm to submit. That’s what the “Delete” key is for.
My original comment was in response to a post on fauxmusicsupe’s blog, that was connected to something Bigg Rome posted here (now deleted).
I’m neutral on FMN. If you want to pay to play that’s an individual decision.
And ther you have IT.
Getting your feelings hurt… you deleted the post.
This is a business, Art.
Let the reader decide.
If you really want this to be a fair forum.
@bigg rome. I have no idea what you are talking about. My feelings are not “hurt” at all. I deleted the rant you posted from FAUXMUSICSUPE. My sandbox my rules.
@ Bigg rome,
I’m not sure what you’re talking about either. Yes, there is A LOT of truth in fauxmusicsupe’s position.
But NO, you’re not going to hurt Art’s feelings or anyone else’s by by agreeing with fauxmusicsupe.
I’m not going to put words into Art’s mouth, but I think the issue was with Fauxmusicsupe’s delivery (choice of words) more than his message. And as far as letting the “reader decide” goes, this IS Art’s website. HE makes the rules.
The exclusive / non-exclusive issue has been discussed here ad-nauseum. There are supporters of both sides of the issue.
So what are you bringing to the table that’s new?
“Have $500 budget for this drop. Found cue in re-title library…looked in a few more libraries found the cue 2 more times. HOW LOW$ CAN U GO”
Well, I wanna see him trying to make a living with one non-exclusive library as a composer. He is only seeing his side, “the poor supervisor who get the same cue twice” OK, you don’t wanna see the same cue twice? fine, work with exclusive ones, and pay up Bit@h. Please do not complain rich music supervisor, I don’t have time for that, I need to make more music for the 10 non exclusive libraries I work with, so the production company that hire you can get 20000 cues with no money.
The composers are not the only people responsible for that situation, its the production company fault as well for not wanting to pay for music. We as a composers need to make a living somehow and that’s from multiple “no sync fee because its a blanket deal” placements made by multiple non exclusive libraries, so yes, sometime you will see the same cue twice, please, don’t kill yourself.
Strangely, you can go into any number of stores and see the some product on the self. Shockingly, they are not always priced the same.
I think you’ve missed his point. FMS would probably rather see the full sync paid out. He doesn’t like libraries that offer their catalogue for no sync fees and he thinks artists who do gratis licenses and spread their work everywhere are only hurting themselves. A past tweet in point was something to the effect of he’s not going to go and pay to see a band who offer their track to a large company/network for free when a license opp comes their way. His point is, the writer in question is hurting themselves because no one is going to pay $500 if they can find the same cue for $50, even when the $500 budget is available!
Thanks, I did miss the point.
mmm….I didn’t explain that very well. It’s more like, “Why should I pay to see some band if they’re prepared to let a big company use their music for free?”
Still not quite right, if I have the time to find that tweet, I’ll post it. It makes perfect sense.
You said “We as a Composers” Are you a composer ? Similar grammatical errors in the rest of your post. Strange. Kinda like bigrome possibly.
I am not from the USA. So I have some grammatical errors.
bigrome is not a friend of that music sup?
Anyway, all I can say is that I am someone who is making a living doing non-exclusive music and I am tired of everyone bitching about it. Because there is so much “composers” right now, the price of the music is going down, so you need to adapt.
Its a matter of supply and demand and right now, there is more supply then demand then ever
Because everyone can build a home studio easily and there is so much “music schools” out there.
No one want to buy my 1:50 min of Hip Hop instrumental music for 500$, so what other thing I can do with it? Spread it around as much as I can.
Maybe we need to blame all of the gear manufactures for giving us such a way to make music at low costs? Maybe we need to blame Cuebase, Protools or Logic?
Anybody know where I can get an original logo? Just had some tracks put up on Soundtaxi and was thinking it’d be pretty cool to have my own logo.
Can anyone remember what the name was of that site where you could upload your music and they would upload it to other stock audio sites for you? ie. you upload once, provide your metadata and they import into other libraries when you join them?
I wanna know too 🙂
Hi Emmett Are you thinking of iSyndica? Art and Bobby Cole were using it but it closed down, there are some comments in the RIP section
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