142 thoughts on “MLR Feedback”

  1. Hi Art,

    Sorry if this one has come up before and I’m just too lazy to find out – but I just wanted to make a suggestion regarding the rating system.

    No doubt there are many good criteria to judge a potential distribution partner on (from a composer’s perspective) – but I think all but one are relatively obvious from the content of this site (and if you don’t know – you can always ask). Surely the thing that is most important for any of us to know (to make the best use of our non-composing time)is whether they’re actually selling anything.

    I’m not sure what the exact calculation needs to be (maybe that would be worth a member vote?) but really, any kind of ranking criteria would be useful. In theory, we pay them their cut because they have contacts we don’t (hopefully no-one still believes you can just build a website, fill it with tunes and they’ll sell any more?). But we have no idea (in many cases) whether they have skills at selling our music.

    I do realise that just because they can sell rock doesn’t mean they can sell orchestral etc. – and maybe that would be an interesting way of setting up the criteria (each member gets one vote per pop/rock/world/dance/orchestral etc.) per library to say ‘yes, they’ve sold a track(s) for me of that genre’. I’m not sure percentage of income or number of sales is meaningful due to the wide spread of experience levels among the membership – but if a library has sold World music for 100 members then – if that’s a genre I write in – that library can a) sell my stuff and b) might be interested if I send them some.

    If we want to know whether they’re nice people or pay on time then I’m sure the truth will out in the postings!

    Just my 2 cents.

    David.

    • From the “Ratings” page: “I have tried implementing a multi-criteria system in the past but never could get one to work. It’s not a perfect system and very subjective but all we have for now.”

      • Hi Art,

        I do understand, but as you’d created the Strings Library comparison poll – I figured I was proposing exactly the same functionality; but with members using polling functionality to relate their experiences rather than state their preferences. Essentially one poll module per library page.

        I guess my concern is that where you have libraries where no-one has reported selling anything outranking those where many have said they derive much of their income (due to ill feeling / warm and fuzzy feelings due to communication styles or percentage splits) then the current rating is potentially misleading. Do you believe there is a common understanding between all members who cast a vote as to what they are ‘marking’ the library in question on?

        • With over 400 libraries it would be quite a task (I’m not even sure the polling plug-in would handle it) and once again there is no way to “vette” the voters. People could game the poll as easily as the ratings.

          I don’t think there is an easy answer for this. I’ll think on it though.

          • There are certainly polling plug ins that only allow 1 set of votes per member (per poll) and though I guess library owners could set up ghost accounts – maybe members would be prepared to sacrifice a little anonymity (voters list shows names & websites = legitimate composer) to get more meaningful rankings. (maybe you could set up a poll to ask them? ;-). This is a serious business concerning the livelihoods both of composers and the libraries – I’m not sure that there is any legitimate reason for a member to maintain an anonymous status.

            I can imagine the PITA effort it would take to do it – but it would represent a real value-add in cost benefit terms once you get to the point of charging fees for membership. Knowing that we are dedicating our time to supplying libraries who are able to make money for us would be worthy of investment from any composer.

  2. Hi Art,
    It’s great to have joined the site, there is a lot of really helpful info and advice. I have only begun to upload music to libraries this year and have only joined a couple so far but have found Audiosparx very helpful and have had a couple of placements through them. The information on MLR is so useful to somebody like myself who is relatively new to the whole process. Many thanks.

  3. Hi Art, I wantted to thank you for this site and the wealth of information available, especially the interesting discussions among the experienced and talented composers here! I have gotten a lot of great feedback from this site and I appreciate it. I’m very new and feel fortunate to have my tracks with several libraries that I first heard about here! I’m in it for the long haul and think what you have here is very helpful to us all.

    Thanks and have a great night (day?),

    Cari

    • Yeah, I agree with everything Cari says. Great site and thanks a million for providing it.

      I have a suggestion, if I may be so bold, I notice that some libraries/licensing companies require a minimum number of songs in your catalog in order to be considered for acceptance. For example, Audiosparx requires I think 30 original tracks before you can even submit. Is there a way we could add that information in their profile? So in addition to knowing whether a library is exclusive, nonexclusive, takes submissions via upload or what have you you know how many minimum songs they require for inclusion into their library.

      Just a thought.

      • @sonicsysops. Anything is possible. It’s all about time and culling that info would take a lot of it!
        I’d rather be writing and promoting my music:-)

  4. Hey, Art: I just wanted to let you know how grateful I am for your work here. The comments and suggestions of you and the others have been invaluable to me. bren

  5. Hello there,

    I believe I saw reviews of the the sites Taxi and Broadjam here before, possibliy classified as “submission sites” or something like that.

    Where did those review-pages go? Or do I confuse this site with another one?

    Best Regards
    /Christian

    • Hi Christian,

      I removed all “Pay To Play” sites when the company with the most complaints threatened a lawsuit. I believe I would have won but I really didn’t have the time, money or energy to deal it.

      • Ok, I understand. It’s too bad that those sites can threaten with law suits, but I totally understand your case. You’re doing some great work with this site, and it’s better that you focus your energy on keeping it up than dealing with those kind of sites.

        I guess it’s more or less common sense to be very careful with the kind of sites that don’t make money on the actual sales, but instead make money on the artists on their monthly fees. It’s a business model with a pretty weak incentive for the hosting site to be successful with artist placements – they get their money anyway.

        Best Regards
        /Christian

    • Hey Beat Machine, quit asking people how much they make. The poor composers don’t want to admit they’re poor, and the rich ones don’t want people jocking them for work.

      • so i take it your a poor one ….calm down it’s website with whatever name you want to put…people should be talking income on here cause if you are licensing your music it is business and business is when one party pays another party for a service or product composers should be giving insight on what actually goes down i have this many placements with such such in this genre and i am making this much per quarter from the us ? international ? is pretty much to the point this in return gives an insight as to what composers are actually making off of there music and what styles of there music is working for them .

        • @Beat Machine

          I guess that you are trying to predict how much you can make and when. No one can tell you how much you will make, and you cannot estimate what you will make based upon what someone else is making per quarter, per year. There are too many variables. I’ve been in this business, probably since before you were born. Styles come and styles go. What’s hot today can be stone cold tomorrow.

          With respect to genre, again, knowing what styles people are writing in won’t necessarily help. Ten people can write in the same genre/style and nine of them might suck. Maybe half of them are using high-end gear, and the rest are pumping crap out with a Casio.

          To have meaningful answers to your questions, you need to know the level at which the successful composers are writing, what equipment they are using, and figure out where you are on the scale.

          The two consistent things that I can tell you are that you need to write in a number of genres and you need to write many, as in hundreds, of tracks.

      • I will be honest. I do NOT make very much money from my music. I do not think most of us here make any good money from licensing music. Many of us are still learning the ropes and are not well connected yet.

        I have had some songs licensed, but those few licenses do not equal success yet. If and when I become successful, I will reveal myself and I will speak about what I have learned so far. I have already shared tidbits here and there. But I still have to make steady income in order to call myself a successful musician.

        Most of my friends and family do not even know that I do music. Why not? Because I do not have a track record of success yet. I want to be able to show off my PRO statements and tell people all of the shows, ads, and movies that my music has been used in. Once I can do that, I will feel good.

        Success to me would be an income of at least $12,500 U.S.D. per quarter for 12 consecutive quarters. I could technically stop working my day job at that point. It may be more or less for other composers.

        I guess the reason that people do not want to talk about money because it is such a taboo subject in society outside of the usual “economy” and “retirement” bits we hear in the news. Those of us who are struggling do not want others to know. Those of us who are successful really do not want others to know. Those of us just getting by share just enough info to pat one another on the back.

        That, my friends, is the truth.

        Best of luck!!!

        • Beat Machine…why would you think I’m a poor composer? Your grammar may suggest that English is not your first language, so if i misunderstood something I apologize.

          NAMELESS….$12,500 a quarter is definitely attainable. You’re serious about your goal, so I’ll volunteer a simple suggestion…

          You may already be doing this, but you HAVE TO open your own accounts with some of these reality show music supervisors. By placing music with licensing companies who take 50% of the PRO monies, you automatically put yourself behind your goal, since you’ll have to double your cue output to make up for the monies you lose to the licensing companies….

          Also, tracks with vocals pay about 6x more than instrumental cues. Why make $1 when you can make $6 right?

          • Oontz, I see that you get it!

            Submitting music to a library is a gamble because so many factors work against you. Other than rejection, the main reasons why music libraries fail composers are a lack of salesmanship and mismanagement of paperwork on the behalf of the library. It is disheartening to have a library mismanage songs that composers have worked hard to create and send out. Realistically, all music libraries, whether non-exclusive or exclusive are middlemen. In that regard, working with music libraries is a disadvantage in the end.

            It is ultimately best for composers to license their songs directly. Composers can register with their PRO as a writer and publisher. This allows the composers to collect all royalties for a song. If composers are savvy enough, they can get their songs placed without going through the hassles of working with others. But it does take time to build a list of music supervisors to work with. That list constantly changes as well.

            I definitely see the advantages for some composers to work with libraries. Some just do not have the heart, brains, or stomach to deal with the business side of music. Music libraries benefit from those who do not desire to put themselves out there and get their own deals.

            But, working with libraries doesn’t make composers weak or incompetent. Many composers actually come out ahead by submitting music to libraries and having them to place the songs. This is why I do not see the problem with libraries taking 50% of earnings (publisher’s share) from songs that they have worked to place. In the end, composers should do what works best for them.

            I am working with libraries right now and I am contacting networks and companies directly. It does take time away from composing, but I think that getting the music that I already have out there is almost more important than constantly composing. Seeking out music supervisors and A&Rs and companies that need music is sort of fun!

            I just hope that it all pays off in the end. I have contacted so many people over email and telephone. I have some things cooking up that I hope will help me to prosper.

            Best of luck!!!

            • There is nothing wrong with contacting music sups directly as opposed to going through libraries. However, keep in mind that you are one of a zillion composers trying to do that and the sups have existing long established relationships with libraries as ‘trusted sources’.

              To make $50K, $75K a year or more you probably need 500-1000 quality tracks out there working for you. A great many composers who earn real money in this game have found they are better off generating 50% more tracks than trying to earn 100% on the tracks they have.

              Again, not discouraging going the direct route if you can make it work… or a combination. But a dose of reality is required. What about putting the time into acquiring and learning better home studio tools? Someone here mentioned a composer we know who earns six figures a year- he quit his day job when he got to around 800 tracks working for him. The majority of his tracks do not use live instruments. He invested his time in THE MUSIC and THE TECHNOLOGY and, to the best of my knowledge, he works almost exclusively through libraries.

              🙂

              • I agree that contacting music supervisors directly is probably the best way to place music. I for one don’t have that in my DNA. I’d rather spend the time writing and aligning myself with libraries that are effective. Just my 2 cents worth.

                • I think before people worry too much about the business model of libraries, whether they should start their own library, or market direct instead of through libraries, they should take a good, honest look at their musical product. There is too much tendency to look at the outside instead of within.

                  Here’s a test I recommend… It’s not perfect (yes, you can pick it apart) but you might learn a lot.

                  Take 5-10 of your best tracks and pitch them to:

                  10 “low bar” libraries, ones that are not all that selective.

                  10 “middle bar” libraries, ones that are somewhat selective.

                  10 “high bar” libraries, ones that are HIGHLY selective.

                  See if you can get a handle on where your product stands in this marketplace.

                  Sometimes I feel like I’m reading about a single guy who can’t get a date for s**t… 🙂 He wonders… If he could only change they way all females think…. If he could only start his own dating service… Maybe he should be marketing to their parents… Ah, but he really needs to start brushing his teeth in the morning… (Being facetious but you get what I’m saying)…

                  🙂

                  • Advice wrote: “Sometimes I feel like I’m reading about a single guy who can’t get a date for s**t… He wonders… If he could only change they way all females think…. If he could only start his own dating service… Maybe he should be marketing to their parents… Ah, but he really needs to start brushing his teeth in the morning… (Being facetious but you get what I’m saying)…”

                    Hehehe! Well analogised. I agree if people can go direct, good for them! I already run my own unrelated business so I know what it takes to succeed *as* a business. In this field I want to be a composer, so I’d rather let those with the experience and the contacts do the marketing. And I want to get to the top floor (or as close as possible) in the particular genres I do. Hence, I’d rather spend my time improving my craft and accessing those top libraries and earn 50% of *rubbing hands together in glee* than cut down music work-time and earn 100% of *diddly-squat*.

                    That’s just my personal choice. If I can’t get into the top libraries, all it means is I have more work to do on my craft. I must be doing something right because in the 6mths since I started as a total noob in this industry, I’ve developed my craft to a point where previously locked doors are starting to open and I just finised my first collection for a library album that I was invited to write for. I would actually like to work directly with supes and shows but I honestly don’t feel I would have the time to do that plus put in the hard yards producing music. So again, good on those who can do it, but it’s not for me and I’m discovering I don’t need to.

                    Wishing everyone all the best for a successful 2011!

              • Hey “Advice”…composers would have to write 100% more tracks, not 50% more tracks. They have to DOUBLE their output of quality tracks to make up for the loss of revenue that’s taken (earned) from the libraries that represent their material.

                • You are right oontz, but the point is the same. If someone is making oodles of money going direct and not working with libraries, more power to them. My suspicion is the comments like that (e.g. go direct and not have to share 50%) come more from folks who are “theorizing” and not really doing it.

                  🙂

                  • If I didn’t have people selling my music on my behalf I would be making about 1% of what I currently make. For me, libraries and middle men are critical to me earning an income. Without them I’d have to spend huge amounts of time being a businessman.

                    • >>>>>>>> Anon: If I didn’t have people selling my music on my behalf I would be making about 1% of what I currently make. For me, libraries and middle men are critical to me earning an income. Without them I’d have to spend huge amounts of time being a businessman. <<<<<<<<<<<<

                      Stop confusing people with reality!! 🙂

              • I think that direct licensing AND working with libraries is beneficial. Some tracks can be placed easier by being licensed directly. Popular music can probably find a home much quicker than other genres. But using a library to have those less popular songs placed is smart. Not everyone can market a CD of Acid Jazz, Gregorian chants, or Celtic Music to Pump Audio and hope to make thousands of dollars. I see no reason for a composer to scoff at alternative avenues to get their music out there.

                I think all options should be on the table. They are to me. I am willing to work with any non-exclusive, exclusive, or royalty-free company as long as I think that my music can be successfully placed. I also am contacting music supervisors directly. Since I am not making at least $50,000 a year strictly from music, I need to keep all options open.

                I am not really a niche-oriented person and I hear people talk all the time about “finding your niche” in order to be successful. But what if your niche doesn’t pan out? For every Bill Gates or Steve Jobs in the world, there are thousands of other computer geeks who have went bankrupt or toil in obscurity trying to “find a niche”. Sometimes it is easier to go with the flow until a brilliant idea emerges.

                Focusing on getting my music into the marketplace through all avenues is the best thing for me until I find one road that leads to success. I can be more selective after I find a few companies or supervisors to work with on a regular basis. In a perfect world, I would just be producing songs for Beyonce, Rihanna, and Usher and collecting a six-figure advance. But even big shot producers started out at the bottom. I just want to put in the work to gain success. Nothing is off-limits.

                Best of luck!!!

          • @ oontz im not saying your poor lol i was just busting your balls ….but yeah i try to get as many direct placements as i can

      • I made $5500 this year (Jan – Dec) from upfront fees. Haven’t a clue how much in backend yet. I have about 45 tracks and am with about 20 libraries.

        There you go 🙂 Oh and I use no live players.

        • Hey, tried to post this before but it seems to have gone missing..
          —

          Thanks for being honest and open. Here are my stats…

          I have 30 tracks with 1 library and make about $1,200 a month in upfront fees. Not really holding out on any backend because this isn’t where it’s at. I’ll start work on that next and join some other libraries.

          My current goal is to have 75 tracks out by June, which I’m estimating should bring in around $2,000 a month. At this point I would quit my job, since my expenses are very low anyway. In fact, I could quit now but don’t want to risk it…because I’m a wimp. Or maybe sensible.

          My goal following that is to consistently make 75 tracks a year for 10 years…

          In response to the comments about contacting supervisors etc, in my view I prefer making music to talking to businessmen. In the end I figure I’ll end up in roughly the same place anyway. Each to their own.

          P.S I should add that I don’t do vocal tracks, that I use live instruments occasionally and that a lot of my income comes from 6-7 tracks out of the 30.

    • One of MLR’s commenters (Matt), has mentioned here before that it took him about 7 years to quit his day job, has about 800 tracks, uses both exclusive and non-exclusive and is doing six figures per year. Matt is not his real name but I know who he is, have heard his music and it is excellent! I don’t believe he uses that many live players. Maybe he will chime in.

      • This year’s been a good one for me – about $50K in license fees (a big boost from some high profile trailer licenses), more than $100K in performance royalties, somewhere around $15K in upfront fees from work for hire library deals. It’s taken close to a decade for me to work up to this level of income – getting better at production, speed and developing a solid client base (i.e. dropping the needy and low paying ones!).

          • I’ve got about 1500 tracks scattered amongst a variety of libraries. Quite a few exclusives, but also some non-exclusives as well. At present I make more from the non-exclusives.

            • Hi Matt, does that 1500 include alts or is that 1500 separate pieces of music, plus alts?

              Thanks again for sharing!

              Art

              • That’s approx. 1500 separate pieces of music. I’ve got over 2000 tracks registered with my PRO because of re-titling. Some tracks aren’t listed because they were part of a score specifically written for a TV show or film. After nearly a decade I’ve lost count, so I don’t really know exactly how many tracks are out there!

                    • Hey Emmett, I don’t keep track of the tracks I’ve given libraries exclusively, which is most of the music I have out in the world.

                      I limit the non-exclusive tracks to a handful of libraries (pretty much just one RF library, two or three license fee based libraries, and just one TV based library). I’ve got a spreadsheet that keeps a record of the re-titling for those libraries, so when the libraries contact me regarding a track, I can figure out what track they’re talking about!

                      I suppose I could do a better job of keeping track of all the music, analyzing the results of each library. But it’s usually pretty clear which ones make the most money, and I try to spend less time doing busy work like that, and more time writing, or not working all together!

        • Matt, don’t really post on here but seeing that has added flame to the desire I already have for making a successful living from music. Knowing that my particular goal has been achieved. Thank you for providing that info.

  9. Hello,
    I was wondering if a suggestion has been brought forward to allow a search of the libraries that would filter by genres that a library is seeking or specializing in. Libraries may like this as well as music providers to help save time and target the right music to the right library.

    • From personal experience, I’d say it’s more often the case that Libraries have a pretty clear idea of what they don’t want, but no so much what they do want 😉

    • That would take a lot of work. Contacting the individual libraries (over 400 on this site) and they may change over time (Hey I’m only one guy!).

  10. Art, have you thought of showing how many posts a person has posted to their ID?

    Like “Stew (1 post)”.

    For example, when someone posts “This library is the bestest library in the whole world and has made me millions of dollars” — sounds dubious, but when you can see the person who posted it has only posted one or two posts, you can at least take the comment with more of a grain of salt.

    I see too many posts with VERY similar diction (and spelling mistakes) claiming how great a library is — and I bet most of those posts are the company assuming different user names.

    Just an idea to help people sort out the crap from reality. 🙂

    Otherwise, a great, useful site for those getting started in the industry!

    • Hi Stew,

      I have checked this on a number of occasions by IP address and it doesn’t appear that way. There have been a few using anonymizers but no more than a few. Interesting idea for a plug-in so I will look and see if there is one that will do that.

      Thanks

      Art

      • Thanks, Art. These days, though, I don’t know if tracing IP addresses is convincing enough for my suspicious miind. I mean, I have access to over 10,002 IPs between my connections at work, home and the 10,000 Starbuck’s that NYC is infested with. Plus, I KNOW I could get my friends/distributors/etc to post stuff from their countries, etc.

        Maybe I’m just getting more curmudgeonly/itinerant as I age. But the amount of manipulation by some libraries trying to lure people into going with their service is just frustrating.

        AND — this is not self-serving, as my library is pretty much closed to most outside composers and I wouldn’t really benefit from the change as much as some of the composers that use MLR.

        But your vigilance is appreciated — and again — this site is a great resource.

        Stew

        • >>>> Maybe I’m just getting more curmudgeonly/itinerant as I age. But the amount of manipulation by some libraries trying to lure people into going with their service is just frustrating. <<<<

          I really don't see that. Most true music library folks have far better things to do than come on a site like this and leave fake posts. More often I see a library owner come on to counter what someone said about them & given some of the ridiculous things some folks say about libraries, I'm glad they do.

          Libraries (not talking pitching services) don't make money because more people sign tracks. They really have no motivation to "lure" people. If a library wants to build their catalog, a simple ad on FMN or other industry place will get them tracks by the boatload.

          🙂

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