[JD]

Just letting you know how this situation progressed.
I called the library owner with the approach of outlining how Flamenco originated + was created with a view to getting his perspective, experience and advice on how he views traditional music and copyright etc.
His thoughts were that, in a genre which is defined by legacy themes that have been around and used by multiple artists over a period of many generations, he has no problem with signing my track.
It was a huge relief.
I didn’t broach the suggestion of HIM indemnifying ME against financial loss if there were ever a legal challenge, as suggested by LAwriter, it makes good sense but I felt like making an issue at this early stage of a hopefully profitable working relationship, could be a deal breaker or start off on the wrong foot
Maybe foolish of me but I didn’t feel it worth creating another obstacle to get in the way of just getting it sorted and uploading the content which I completed today. It was a good feeling and has cleared the decks for me mentally to be able to get on and finish other tracks. Ive learned a lot through the experience and will approach future track creation with cautious awareness of all the issues that gave me so much concern
Thanks all the best. JD

[JD]

LAwriter I can’t thank you enough, .I’ve been procrastinating for days on how to handle this. your reply’s a huge help.
I’ve decided to bite the bullet and be 100% open with the library no matter what the consequences.

They may have already dealt with similar copyright questions on other traditional music tracks so seeking their perspective/advice could help get clarity on how to move forward.

I’ve got Latin tracks (not flamenco) with one NE Library, any use of the word ‘traditional‘ in my description sometimes requires clarification that I’m describing instrumentation.vibe + arrangement etc and NOT the actual composition.
As you wisely suggest, keeping well away from recognisable ‘signatures’ motifs of traditional forms is an excellent focus.
The fact that many library ownes/end users don’t know what ‘authentic’ Flamenco is themselves, means it’s more about avoiding problems by creating the feel of it, rather than making it 100% true to it’s heritage.

I’ve lost enough sleep already thinking about it all, if I lose the deal .then I will have learned something, my hope is that, even if this track is rejected, they may be open to other submissions.
Many thanks. JD

[JD]

Thanks LAwriter for your reply.

My track can be described as Traditional Flamenco, in the ‘sub-genre’ which all Flamenco guitarists learn called ‘Soleá ‘.
It has a specific chord sequence, rhythm (12 beat cycle) and a set of motifs, melodic themes + chord voicings that define it.

I don’t believe it can be copyrighted as there have been countless records, old and new, released by well known guitarists, playing Soleá,
their renditions (as does mine) all express the above characteristics + are variations or arrangements of Soleá which is why it is normally just listed as ‘Soleá’on album covers with no author credit but just labelled ‘traditional’.
If anyone is interested here’s my track + a few examples of well-known artists performing Soleá. the similarities between all can be heard.

My track:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/c72f9d2yunlesje6i12rl/Jos-Due-as-Le-n_Amor-Flamenco_TAXI.mp3?rlkey=abpawqr7n63txg64cvn1dccuk&dl=0

Paco Peña

Moraito

LA writer I appreciate your comments as it highlights how badly wrong it can go. I definitely don’t want it ending up costing instead of making me money.

I’m unsure whether to flag this up to the new (to me) library owner and risk blowing the whole deal or whether there would be no case to answer as the traditional elements are PD and my additions are mine. Am I overthinking it?
The library owner is communicative and the whole operation seems top knotch with great distribution so I would be gutted to lose the opportunity but don’t want to lose sleep over it either.

Any comments much appreciated
JD

[JD]

Hi again. I feel I need to simplify the main point of my question re. Traditional music and copyright (Flamenco in my case).
How do other composers deal with the copyright issue in for example Blues?
If a Blues composition has a typical 12 bar structure and is played on guitar using the familiar ‘chuggy’ riff known to most guitarists but has an original melody superimposed or added, can this be categorised as an original work? (Let’s forget lyrics for the moment as my Flamenco track is an instrumental).

Similar to Flamenco, Blues has unclear, anonymous and arcane origins which form a fundamental and recognisable structure but whose authors are mostly unknown.
For composers submitting Blues compositions to libraries, that express traditional motifs with unique elements added, what approach do you take re. authorship of your original work?
Any response much appreciated. Thanks
JD

[JD]

Hi Mason805
I think I had a similar situation a few years ago. I had a placement on Ugly Betty and a few other series and thought I should contact the producers of Ugly Betty to start. It was Fox television. I got through to the right department (I’m in the UK) and explained that I wished to use a clip from the episode containing my song. It was not for me to profit in any way but just to showcase my work.
The lady I spoke to immediately quoted me $1000 for 1 year’s usage (I think).she seemed to be expecting me to put forward a counter offer. I ended the call and went ahead and used the clip anyway (without paying anything).
For me there was no comeback or demand for payment, BTW this was just for my website not for YouTube etc. That could be a different story re take downs etc.
I’m not advocating not paying but in reality it is a lot of money to pay just to showcase my own song for no direct profit.
Hope this is helpful. Cheers. JD

[JD]

Another thought I just had in order to give both main and instro mixes the same endings is to take the ending of the intro and, at a most musical moment, drop that into the main mix to replace the original main mix ending. That way they both have the same endings.
Part of the problem is that the original 2008 main mix only had a fade out (doh!!) So it’s current endings is already constructed from the introduction. I’m going to give this idea a go but impose a time deadline on myself to not waste any more time.
Cheers
JD

[JD]

Apologies Michael Nicholas, I used your surname as your first name!
Jd

[JD]

Hi Michael Nicholas and LA writer thanks for your responses.
You are right Nicholas, if I don’t submit to the new library then, as you say, I am effectively treating the first library as exclusive.
Who knows how each library will do, not good to have all my eggs in one basket. I think part of my procrastination is because the first library has got me some really good placements making it hard to imagine any other library doing better or as well for me with the same material in the same range of TV genres.
I think I have put myself in this situation by overlooking the overlap of tv genres supplied by both libraries’. This I think is made worse by the fact that there seem to be so few NE libraries that aren’t RF to choose from.
I can learn from this in the future and do more research before submitting to any new libraries.
Also, as I become more prolific and my catalog increases in size and range, I may feel happier to submit to exclusives.

On the positive side, the new library seems very responsive and fast in screening and accepting tracks, the first one can take up to 3 months to approve a track and only allow a maximum of 3 tracks
awaiting review, but once signed they are very active and professional in their pitch activity.
Thanks so much for your comments.
JD

[JD]

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments, I will stay away from splice as it sounds like a potential legal minefield.
JD

[JD]

Hi Tbone,
Thanks for your responses., much appreciated.
. I think the default selection with PRS is to select ASCAP as the US PRO, I don’t remember being asked to select a US PRO when registering tracks in recent years (maybe when I first joined prs years ago)
When I asked the US library for advice on the subject they said I can select either, if changing from ascap to bmi then I would just have to let them know so they can register my tracks with BMI..
I am tempted to change to BMI if they pay better for source music with vocals placements but at the same time, if there is not much difference then I think it best to leave things as they are (not try to fix what seems to be working).
The issue seems to be an ongoing and long lasting discussion with no clear distinction or favourite.
I am in the middle of registering a new track with PRS and am eager to get the track out in the marketplace (and not bug the library by delaying). Might give it another day to think about it but probably no major loss either way.
Cheers
JD

[JD]

Hi Folks
Any thoughts on my question anyone?
I guess the question has been asked a lot but I am unsure how to find previous posts on this subject if that is the case.
Thank you
JD

[JD]

Wow! Thank you everyone for your meaningful responses! So many great thoughts and suggestions.
The more I think about the issue I realise that this dynamic happens in many other arenas. One example that I have experienced many times is in the world of live work that I have done for years. Through years of dealing with entertainment agencies I eventually learned to identify a good one and sift out the terrible or dishonest ones. After building trust and loyalty with some high end agents (and doing professional jobs consistently) I was able to get with some great agents and get good paying gigs in some prestigious venues (corporate functions/parties etc)
Getting calls or emails from other musicians I know asking how I get that kind of gig and who are the best agents to approach I feel similar to what I described regarding music licensing. Firstly what the questioner is actually asking for is my hard won contacts in order to offer them a direct competitor and (cheaper) alternative to me! What I do find annoying is the lack of understanding of what I am being asked and again the same attitude of ‘anything you can do I can do better’ coupled with an acquisitively entitled attitude.
I view my contacts as hard won assets, when I am asked to just casually give them away it devalues what has taken me decades to achieve.
In the end I guess it is a response of envy and competitiveness not specific to my work but part of human nature.
As mentioned by Paul Biondi, this kind of thing is actually a compliment but at the same time I have experienced a feeling of having been taken advantage of by people I have worked with in both gigging and writing collabs who find devious ways to get valuable information out of me through a friendly (self serving) approach.
The idea of actually turning things around and teaching these skills and approaches is something that has never occurred to me,( thank you Ed Hartman and others for the idea) I have watched many YouTube videos on the subject, don’t think it’s something I want to do but it’s a fantastic idea with a really positive attitude to it. At the moment I don’t feel qualified to teach on the subject but I can see the benefits to doing so.
There have been so many really brilliant ideas and responses here, I am really grateful and glad I asked for all your thoughts. It is good to know that it is not just me that goes through this kind of situation.
Sincere thanks
JD

[JD]

Thanks Art,
It’s quite comforting to know that I am not alone in how I feel. Many who come at me with this type of question are not even dedicated to composing and don’t have any kind of home studio set up but have written a few songs or instros and seem to have the attitude that if just one track gets picked up then they will be rolling in cash! Of course one important placement can be momentous but as we all know it is more a question of a long term mindset and years of hard work and self improvement.
I think part of my issue is that I feel a bit insulted by the assumptions at play, I know that is MY problem!

[JD]

I have emailed Kryptic Samples a couple of times to get clarification on their licence terms but have not heard anything back. I won’t be buying their sample pack as I don’t want the risk of using samples that I don’t have clear licence terms for. Shame as I am working on a track where they would be useful. Never mind!
JD

[JD]

Hi Art,
Thanks for your response, the company selling the pack is producer loops but the producers of the pack are called Kryptic Samples.
I will follow your suggestion and contact them directly.
Cheers, JD

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