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Hi folks!
This is my first post here so Hello to everybody!
I’m looking for some advices about loudness metering for cinematic trailers. I read about a lot of standards and plugins to measure them but I’m a little bit confused.
I usually don’t care about loudness, but I would like to be able to do it in the right way if asked for 🙂Just make it sound good. Loudness compliance will be taken care of by the trailer mixer.
A/B your cues against a bunch of music *in* the kind of trailers you’re aiming for and just make sure your cue sounds great at that level. By that, I don’t mean find the original cue on youtube or itunes. Download the trailers from http://trailers.apple.com/ …import them to your DAW, volume match your cue to the trailer music in its context and see how yours sounds.
The louder you push it, the more they will turn it down in post.Use something like the free MeldaProduction MLoudness Analyzer. I don’t think there’s much point in composers spending a lot on top shelf loudness meters because we’re not the ones ensuring compliance. As long as your meter gives you a fair comparison against official trailers you should be in the right ballpark.
As an example, I absolutely love Jack Trammell’s music. But the loudness of his iTunes releases is insane. Listen to his stuff on trailers and it’s turned down.
2c.
Modern trailer music is indeed mastered very loud. Listen to Jack Trammell, CLiff Lin or Daniel Lenz. Their music is constantly at around -9 dB RMS up to a maximum of -7,5 dB RMS when its going to the climax.
Modern pop and rock music is now at around -9,5 dB RMS. 10-15 years ago it was around -11,5 dB RMS.
I don`t want to discuss if the loudness madness is good or bad. All I know is that we have to mix and master extremely loud for the trailer market !Well, you can make it as loud as you possibly can but it will still be turned down in post so why sacrifice too much dynamics just for extra loudness?
I just performed a quick, rough test. I checked a section of a JT cue, “Critical Mass” as it was used in the “Olympus has fallen” trailer and as it sounds on the iTunes release.
Granting that there is some voice-over in the trailer and a small amount of level dropping here and there, still, the results were substantially different in the loudness meter.
TRAILER –
Peak: -2.9
Momentary: about 9.5 at highest
Integrated: 8.2ALBUM –
Peak: + 0.25
Momentary: above 20
Integrated: 19.5I had a cue test mastered at JT’s studio by his ME. It’s very loud, it mostly sounds good but in the end I decided too much was sacrificed for loudness. The test wav is available for anyone to download. http://soundcloud.com/cruciform/prey-for-your-life-fcr I wouldn’t suggest against using them or going that loud, but for me, the trade-off is too great.
Hence, my position to simply make it sound as good as possible at comparable trailer use levels. I’m not out to argue, merely fleshing out my thoughts.
Ps. To clarify one thing, I’m not saying don’t master loud, because the sad reality is that when a supe is searching and your cue is relatively soft and the ones they preview before and after are too loud, that softness could work against you.
My point, simply put, is that I wouldn’t like to sacrifice sound quality *for* loudness. It isn’t worth it because it is not going to be performed as loudly as the master.
Like I say, my 2c.
/end transmission
The straight album release of a trailer cue or a film music cue at itunes or wherever is in 99% of the cases always louder than the synced cue in a trailer.
Its very easy to explain. The itunes release is the presentation mix so its mastered very loud and powerful.
For a trailer the editor mostly uses stems (groups of drums, guitar, fx, orchestra) and they are not mastered to death. So in fact the modern trailer editor is capable of doing his own mix that is needed for the trailer.
And to make things simple dudes, because it would be too complicated to explain physical terms, just use a Maximizer/Peak Limiter like the Waves L2 or any other Limiter in your master out and set the out celling to a maximum of -0,3dB, then you`ll have enough headroom.
Take whatever meterbridge you can get, there`s a lot of good freeware out there (Hofa, Melda) and work with the RMS level. Every other scale is maybe a bit too complicated for a beginner.
With the threshold of the Limiter you can try until you reach the result you like.
Here are some references…..Production Music/Royalty Free Music
– master around -12dB to max -11dB RMS and you`ll be save
– some libraries prefer louder mixes (always ask)Trailer Music
– master around -9,5dB RMS (climax can go to -7,5dB RMS)
– stems are mostly pre-mastered up to around – 10db RMSOf course there are always exceptions 🙂
Hope I could help…
WildmanI had a cue test mastered at JT’s studio by his ME. It’s very loud, it mostly sounds good but in the end I decided too much was sacrificed for loudness. The test wav is available for anyone to download. http://soundcloud.com/cruciform/prey-for-your-life-fcr I wouldn’t suggest against using them or going that loud, but for me, the trade-off is too great.
Sounds great to me, I dont have the original of course to compare HUGE !!!!
Production Music/Royalty Free Music
– master around -12dB to max -11dB RMS and you`ll be save
– some libraries prefer louder mixes (always ask)I dont really understand what you mean here, delivering music/stems to be mixed for a movie or TV is a different issue and should always be checked with the client but..
If you are talking about Music libraries your 2 track master should be CD standard level. I deliver at peak -0.5 dbfs. If you are talking about dynamic range or the amount of limiting, thats a different, maybe aesthetic issue. I cant see how reducing the level to -11 db rms makes sense? Am I missing something ?
http://www.youtube.com/user/masteringmedia/videos
is a good resource
Production Music/Royalty Free Music
– master around -12dB to max -11dB RMS and you`ll be save
– some libraries prefer louder mixes (always ask)Sorry mea culpa, I missed the RMS bit ( very old school ) even so, a bit overly complicated me thinks. Most DAWS just have digital meters and while RMS is a good measure of loudness I don’t think its relevant today with all the new average loudness/EBU/K metering stuff going on now.
Looks like your are missing something here Woodsdenis 🙂
The topic is: loudness standards in trailer music
I wanted to give some helpful tips for beginners nothing more.
A beginner doesn`t care about dBFS, DBU, dBV or other measurement units.It is good explained here…..
http://www.masteringtuition.com/index.php/dynamics-processing-index/fatness-and-rms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_powerThe maxiximum peak level can
t be over 0,0 dB or youll have digital clipping or distortion so set your max to -0,3dB.
With the RMS you can measure the almighty average loudness of a track 🙂The last Metallica or System of a Down album was mastered very loud and the max. RMS went almost to -6,8 dB RMS. I think Rick Rubin likes heavy compression and loudness.
A standard trailer stereo cue is normally up to -7,5 dB RMS at the climax.
Stems are often only pre-mastered.It`s very easy to compare music with this easy measuring method.
In Europe this method is pretty normal.Here`s a good meter to learn…
http://hofa-plugins.de/pages/start_de/4u.phpBest,
Wildman@Wildman I am at an age where I used RMS and PPM meters on real desks so I am aware of what they do, as I said in my previous post I miss read the crucial RMS addendum on your post about Production music .
You are of course correct, unfortunately one can’t erase erroneous posts on this forum LOL.
As a matter of interest the BBC still uses PPM as its standard
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/tv_delivery_of_programmes_to_worldwide_v1.0-2011.pdf
and the EBU
http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r128.pdf
something different.
Minefield…
Although this is for final mixed broadcast one can run into issues, if a spot is very music orientated with no vo for example. A lot of time transfers are done by video editors who will take your BWAV file and just plonk it on there. The EBU standard is “meant” to combat loud commercials against “normal programming”. Compressed music may actually cause problems as to the “Overall Loudness” issues. It may end up quieter as a result.
Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread.